What the heck is up with steel and China?

Hal

New member
Anybody have any insight?
I just spent 10 days onsite @ an electrical contractor installing new computer equipment. The estimators there are going nuts trying to keep up with the pricing and supply of steel products.
It reminded me a lot of the crude oil situation back in the early '70's. Pricing is done on a "price when shipped" basis.
I heard that the reeason is that China is scarfing up not only scrap, but even the raw materials faster than it can be processed. One of the suppliers there even told me China diverted a shipment of coke (not the nose-candy, the stuff for making steel) in mid-Atlantic by offering a considerable amount of money over wht the US company had already paid.
 
Other commodities being affected also: Cement, plywood. We're paying over $16 now for 7/16" OSB, that we used to get for les than $4.

China is building the three gorges dam...the largest dam project in the world.

Here's an informative article: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5139156/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strong global demand puts cement in short supplyBy Ryan Geddes
The Business Journal of Jacksonville
Updated: 8:00 p.m. ET June 06, 2004

JACKSONVILLE -- A construction boom in China and a host of global and regional supply chain issues have combined to create what analysts are calling the "perfect storm" of demand for building materials in the United States.

Due to regional production facility failures and a record-setting construction boom, Florida has been hit especially hard by the resulting shortages, causing price increases and project delays in Jacksonville and statewide.

Portland cement, a cement type used in most concrete products, is the latest in a series of building materials to jump in cost, following spikes in steel, oil and even plywood prices in recent months.

Analysts blame the cement shortage on both Chinese and American high demand for construction materials. According to the Portland Cement Association, a trade group, strong domestic economic growth led to double-digit cement demand growth in the fourth quarter of 2003. Because domestic cement producers had just emerged from a sluggish growth period, production capacity was too low to meet the increased demand.

Typically in such a situation, suppliers would turn to imports to make up the so-called "swing supply," but experts say the cement that would normally be available for export to the United States is being re-routed to China instead.

That country's numerous large-scale construction projects, including its preparations for the 2008 Olympic Games and its continuing work on the massive Three Gorges Dam, has resulted in a worldwide redeployment of shipping fleets to Asia.

"In an effort to maximize their returns, seaborne shipping companies have redeployed the shipping fleet to Asia, generating a shortage of carriers to the U.S. fleet," said Ed Sullivan, chief economist at PCA, in a May report.

Cement plants are running at flat-out production levels to meet demand, and the duration of the domestic construction boom has exhausted inventories, causing many suppliers to ration cement to customers.

"What I'm hearing now is not so much changes in pricing but that we are on allocation. It's basically about getting the right to overpay," said Granvil Tracy, president of American Land Housing Group Inc. The Miami-based developer is building The Strand at St. Johns Place, a high-rise apartment and condominium project on Jacksonville's Southbank. "This has already required us to do significant redesign of the buildings to eliminate any inefficiencies as it relates to concrete and steel."

In Palm Beach County, architects and county officials are trying to bring the new Scripps Research Institute in at its budget of $137 million, but cement and steel prices are making the task difficult.

"In a sense, we are between a rock and a hard place," said Jon Jackson, a Pittsburgh-based principal of Bohlin Cywinski Jackson, one of the two architecture firms designing the facility.

Prices for rebar, a steel product, are up 40 percent over a year ago and steel plate prices are up 31 percent, according to Engineering News-Record, a construction trade publication.

Quantifying cost hikes in concrete is more difficult because shortages are regional and recent, said Tim Grogan, senior economics editor for Engineering News-Record.

"We have heard reports of 10 percent increases in some markets," he said.

Cement prices in Jacksonville and statewide remain unstable, but industry analysts and developers say steel prices are peaking, albeit at high levels. Plywood and structural board prices are beginning to stabilize as well, but the same supply and demand issues facing the cement industry are plaguing the manufactured wood business.

According to Random Lengths, an Oregon-based forestry products industry trade publication, plywood prices averaged $545 per thousand square feet in the first quarter of 2004, a 107 percent increase over the same period in 2003.

Experts mostly discount the Chinese market as a reason for the tight plywood supply, citing instead high U.S. demand coupled with domestic supply chain issues. China has the highest number of plywood mills in the world -- nearly 2,000 -- and its ability to efficiently manufacture wood products is increasing, according to the Engineered Wood Association.

Trends in domestic wood panel production have been relatively flat in recent years, which spurred mill closures and reduced overall supply. Although reconstruction efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan have placed demand on worldwide plywood supplies, that demand is negligible, experts say.

Although plywood prices are on the rise, the material can still be more cost-effective than concrete and steel for some projects.

"We are looking at an office condo project right now that is just getting ready to start design," said Mick Stuebben, president of Jacksonville-based Stuebben Architecture Inc. "Normally we would have used a lot more concrete, but instead what we're looking at is more of a residential approach."

Stuebben said he was caught off guard by the cement price increases when a contractor working on one of Stuebben Architecture's current projects asked for an engineering change. The change would have allowed the contractor to continue working on a different part of the building while builders waited for cement, already weeks behind schedule, to become available.

"In the past we've seen spikes in prices because of construction booms. This one is a little more atypical," said Stuebben. "These issues are more based on the global economy than they are on a localized production boom. It's a little scary in some regards."
 
Construction boom my eye. :mad:


Construction of a better military machine, you mean. China is FILLED with half finished office buildings. They're everywhere you look.

I saw one that would have rivaled the World Trade Center for capacity. 5 5 towers of about 50 stories each, joined together by a 5 story plaza at the base. About 60% of the outside glass was installed. Rusting equipment and weeds were scattered around the work area.
 
coworker theory about three gorges dam

he is certain china is building the dam to get electricity to make steel to make weapons to go to war. he could be right as the dam will produce a ton of electric and it sure aint gonna go to the people outside of the cities. they could possibly build up to walk over anyone.
 
Maybe Norinco is tooling up to build AR-15s after the ban sunsets. Need extra steel for bayonet lugs! :D
 
[conjecture]I think that if I was Party Chief in China and had the potential for control of a huge hydroelectric dam I would build a mass driver nearby.

Using cryogenic magnets and a few thousand gigawatts of power China could conceivably set up the proverbial "wagon train to the stars" that Sci Fi writers envisioned in the 50's and 60's.

Imagine a mass driver with a regeneration/cooling time of 3 minutes and a payload of 1/2 ton, capable of shoving materials into a low earth orbit. That is 20,000 pounds an hour or 480,000 pounds a day or 3,360,000 pounds a week. China could build an orbiting space station in two days, equip its first moon mission by the end of the first week, finish its moon base in a month and launch its first Mars mission by the end of six months.

All they need is the energy to bootstrap their space program out of the earth gravity well and they could easily put a colony on the moon the size Heinlein envisioned within a decade. So what if the gee force of takoff kills 90% of their colonists? China has a lot of volunteers. [/conjecture]
 
China is spending those billions of dollars they've made at our expense. Only natural that they wouldn't let it all sit in the bank. And it is hardly likely that China is going to sit very long on the dollars that remain either. I am watching for them to dump them for euros - then watch what happens to our paper dollars.
 
Lead, as in lead for bullets and other things, seems to be another commodity China is buying. Good for the world economy perhaps, but bad for us shooters.
 
Also tin, prices are going up quickly.

So we are the only ones allowed to have a military? Hmm, better disarm the world while we're at it. Take away all those pesky guns.

Lest it escapes your notice, China has one of the few growing economies. Raw material is needed to feed it. Yes, I agree part of the raw material goes into the military. Maybe not a whole 15% of their GNP, but some of it.

China is spending those billions of dollars they've made at our expense.
Er, isn't that how trade works? I'm sure the US boom of the '50s and '60s made some money from those not in the US. The recent growth in the '90s when the rest of the world wasn't doing so well made money from somewhere. If you are refering to T-bills, hey, that's how the system works. Don't blame others for buying into your monetary system.
 
They did indeed, Hal, they did indeed. And we did the same thing then we are doing now...


We buried our collective heads in our bank accounts and pretended that those sounding the alarm were just Chicken Littles.


Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
Croyance,

[RE:"Er, isn't that how trade works? [etc]".]

... Stating the obvious perhaps sounds good to those ignorant of the principles involved and the potential consequences. It did not come to "work that way" by accident either.
 
Ahhh, the wonders of a command economy. All base metals are in short supply. Some of it is related to demand, some related to supply games being play by China.

The Chinese economy is too hot to for a lot of number crunchers. Prediction is the wheels will begin to fall off in 2004. Too many bad loans out there controlled by the state. US capitalization of projects (US provides capital and China provides the labor and lack of health, environment, safety, and lawyers) is increasingly difficult to justify.

Loans are being made on the basis of relationships and not profitability. Last economy pulling this stunt was Japan and they are just now beginning to recover.

All it not well in China. Cracks appear and will only grow.
 
I mentioned the office buildings that are left unfinished. It wasn't until my 2nd project over there that I found someone who could tell me why.

Fraud. Get a big loan for a big project, and fold the company, keeping the money. There's never any intent to finish the building.

Loans are being made on the basis of relationships

Exactly. Know the right people in the bank, get your loan, and share the proceeds.

I forget the the default rate I was told, but it was shocking. No way it can continue.


Here's an example of a building not finished. It appears to have been abandoned for at least a couple of years. Crane and all, it sits and decays. Squatters have made plywood shanties on some of the lower floors. This is fairly small. Many are much bigger. Next to the office where I worked there was a complex that never got off the ground floor. FOUR of these cranes sat there, rusting.
 
... Stating the obvious perhaps sounds good to those ignorant of the principles involved and the potential consequences. It did not come to "work that way" by accident either.
Then enlighten me, oh guru, for I believe that forums are to communicate and not snipe. Dispense some hard earned wisdom.

Of course there is fraud. One of the first things that people learn in a free market economy is fraud. That is one reason why we have so many laws, the SEC, and the IRS. Well, at least in theory that is why.

Really, as China modernizes its military, I see Siberia as more of a target than the United States.
 
The question is how well and how long can you keep pedaling to avoid the bad consequences of your actions?

Combine this with the manipulation of China's ratio of male v. female births and it does look like it might get interesting over there.

Fortunately, the same manipulation of births is also occurring in India and I would suspect several other areas over in Asia. All those randy, young males and nary a female to be found. Just imagine some of our old west mining and cattle camps.

All it really takes is one little nudge to start the corrections in economic systems and there is nothing that can stop them till they run their course. I fully expect this time it will make the Great Depression look like a cakewalk.

While it will be expected that the Chinese will try to move on Siberia I really wonder if they will have the wherewithal to do it.

When you break your economy like that it will be hard to organize the resources for foreign interventions especially if someone starts shooting back. You would have to think that with the infrastructure of China stressed out a few swift kicks might cause more problems than can be imagined.

But, what do I know? I'm only one of the uneducated louts out here in flyover country.
 
Croyance,

You don't have to be a "guru" to figure out what'll happen to the U.S. dollar when China decides to starts dumping the pile of dollars they have for another reserve currency - like the euro. In addition to the damage already done to our manufacturing industry over many years - things are set to continue in this direction.

Of course China is going to increase it's military spending, and they are certainly one of the greatest threats in that regard. But perhaps greater still in the present is our economic vulnerability.
 
Reagan's policies towards the Soviet Union were essentially economic warfare. Perhaps the Chinese are following his example.
 
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