what sort of damage does the .50 BMG do to living beings?
- Thread starter briandg
- Start date
"...It can't possibly be as destructive as..." Think in terms of the physics. It's a 710 grain bullet(standard M2 Ball ammo) at ~ 2,800 fps. Very big things going fast. Very big things going fast that were designed to destroy soft skinned vehicles and penetrate 3/4" of armour plate at 600 yards. Never mind people.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=3055
1000 x 1333 pixels is too big.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=3055
1000 x 1333 pixels is too big.
603Country
New member
I’ll share a real world data point. My cousin has a 50. Naturally he needed to hunt with it, so he shot a doe (150ish pounds) at approx 600 yards. Later I saw the pictures. The doe was in chunks - the front half, the second half, and misc chunks. At that time he was shooting Hornady AMax.
I have a Serbu BFG50 50 BMG. I'll have to look for it, but I have a video of me shooting a pumpkin at 100 yards. The entrance wound was just the size of the projectile. The back side though was completely blown out. Most of the inside guts of the pumpkin were now outside of it with nothing but a gaping ragged hole in the back. This was just an everyday, soft pumpkin. Nothing even closely related to a human or animal. If the 700 plus grain round can do that to a pumpkin no living animal is going to get up after being hit by it.
In flesh and bone the exits look a lot like those you'd see from a 378 Weatherby soft point, but if the bullet hits something first (like the walls of trucks and troop trailers, the ones I speak of were Russian made I believe. ) the bullets can yaw or tumble some and those are the ones that look like someone was hit with a large piece of a shell frag. It's gory and dramatic. I know. This statement is not from reading someone else's report.
I know the bullets were sideways or tipped because you could see the exist from the sheet metal, and they were tears, not round holes.
It's not pretty, I can assure you. But not a supersize either. A 7.62 NATO that is tipped when it hits a man is a lot messier then one that hits point on. A 50 is no different. Just bigger. When it comes to splashing flesh, it's a lot bigger.
If a 5.56 or a 7.62 looses half to 3/4 of it's velocity when it hits something and tips, it's still dangerous, but the effects are not as bad as they can be when it is going a lot faster.
A 50 BMG round may get tipped, but unless it goes through a big tree or some fairly thick metal it doesn't loose that much speed, owing to it's size. And even if it hits something and slows down to 1/3 of it's impact speed it's still a bullet that is 1/2" around, 2" long and going as fast as a 45 auto is at the muzzle. Getting hit by one sideways is not going to be nice.
They are very impressive.
I know the bullets were sideways or tipped because you could see the exist from the sheet metal, and they were tears, not round holes.
It's not pretty, I can assure you. But not a supersize either. A 7.62 NATO that is tipped when it hits a man is a lot messier then one that hits point on. A 50 is no different. Just bigger. When it comes to splashing flesh, it's a lot bigger.
If a 5.56 or a 7.62 looses half to 3/4 of it's velocity when it hits something and tips, it's still dangerous, but the effects are not as bad as they can be when it is going a lot faster.
A 50 BMG round may get tipped, but unless it goes through a big tree or some fairly thick metal it doesn't loose that much speed, owing to it's size. And even if it hits something and slows down to 1/3 of it's impact speed it's still a bullet that is 1/2" around, 2" long and going as fast as a 45 auto is at the muzzle. Getting hit by one sideways is not going to be nice.
They are very impressive.
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briandg
Last fall, the doe I shot with my 7.5x55 Swiss with a 174 gr SP had about an 8" blowout on exit. Lots of wasted meat. That's the 1st time I ever saw that. Supposedly, 30-30 and 7.62x39 are in the same class, but I've not seen that happen with my SKS or AK shooting SP and SST bullets. It may happen, but there's a big difference in speed and energy between 7.5x55 Swiss and 7.62x39, even though the projectiles are the same diameter. Obviously, most hunters don't want 8" exit wounds and that's not the norm, but you'll definitely see bigger than caliber exit wounds, even with FMJ.
603Country:
That's just wanton waste...
Last fall, the doe I shot with my 7.5x55 Swiss with a 174 gr SP had about an 8" blowout on exit. Lots of wasted meat. That's the 1st time I ever saw that. Supposedly, 30-30 and 7.62x39 are in the same class, but I've not seen that happen with my SKS or AK shooting SP and SST bullets. It may happen, but there's a big difference in speed and energy between 7.5x55 Swiss and 7.62x39, even though the projectiles are the same diameter. Obviously, most hunters don't want 8" exit wounds and that's not the norm, but you'll definitely see bigger than caliber exit wounds, even with FMJ.
603Country:
That's just wanton waste...
I have often heard the claim that the 7.62X39 is the equivalent to the 30-30 Winchester cartridge.
30-30-150 grain bullet at a nominal 2400 FPS, a little less in short carbine barrels.
30-30-170 grain bullet at about 2200 (maybe closer to 2100, real world)
X39- 123 bullet at about 2300 FPS depending on barrel length.
The 7.62X39, great cartridge that it is, for the purpose it was designed, does not equal the 30-30 as far as ballistic coefficient or bullet weight and has far less striking power. Cartridge producer have also had 100 plus years to get the bullet construction perfected so that the 30-30 is a very good medium game cartridge under 200 yards or so.
I know that heavier soft point and hollow point bullets are available for the X39 but you will then get a velocity loss. Not sure how this would effect bullet performance but probably would depend on bullet construction.
30-30-150 grain bullet at a nominal 2400 FPS, a little less in short carbine barrels.
30-30-170 grain bullet at about 2200 (maybe closer to 2100, real world)
X39- 123 bullet at about 2300 FPS depending on barrel length.
The 7.62X39, great cartridge that it is, for the purpose it was designed, does not equal the 30-30 as far as ballistic coefficient or bullet weight and has far less striking power. Cartridge producer have also had 100 plus years to get the bullet construction perfected so that the 30-30 is a very good medium game cartridge under 200 yards or so.
I know that heavier soft point and hollow point bullets are available for the X39 but you will then get a velocity loss. Not sure how this would effect bullet performance but probably would depend on bullet construction.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"what sort of damage does the .50 BMG do to living beings?"
No one knows. People shot with the .50 BMG mysteriously vanish without a trace. There is some speculation that they've been transported to an alternate universe...
I've heard the "material only" claim about the .50 BMG so many times over the years it's not funny. When I've asked for JAG/DOD guidance to support that claim, it's always "well, I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend who said...."
Right.
Trying to justify it by saying "I wasn't shooting at the person, I was shooting at X equipment ON the person" is the kind of pathetic quibble and ludicrous explanation that would be followed by a conviction IF it were actually illegal, which it isn't.
It's a child's equivalent of "I didn't break the lamp, the floor broke the lamp, thus I shouldn't be punished!"
While I have no proof to back this up, I suspect that the whole "material only" myth was born out of field commanders not wanting their troops to waste .50 BMG ammo on opposing infantry with it might be the only thing that they had to engage aircraft or light vehicles.
No one knows. People shot with the .50 BMG mysteriously vanish without a trace. There is some speculation that they've been transported to an alternate universe...
I've heard the "material only" claim about the .50 BMG so many times over the years it's not funny. When I've asked for JAG/DOD guidance to support that claim, it's always "well, I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend who said...."
Right.
Trying to justify it by saying "I wasn't shooting at the person, I was shooting at X equipment ON the person" is the kind of pathetic quibble and ludicrous explanation that would be followed by a conviction IF it were actually illegal, which it isn't.
It's a child's equivalent of "I didn't break the lamp, the floor broke the lamp, thus I shouldn't be punished!"
While I have no proof to back this up, I suspect that the whole "material only" myth was born out of field commanders not wanting their troops to waste .50 BMG ammo on opposing infantry with it might be the only thing that they had to engage aircraft or light vehicles.
Well.... 8 .50 BMG's are "only" 100,000 ft-lbs of retro-energy / ~ 200 horsepower, but that's only 10% of the total Hellcat engine output.
Here's another interesting .50 point firsthand observation: The recoil from 12,000ft-lbs of energy can be bone-breaking to painful to very unpleasant or not bad.
A bolt action .50 BMG rifle without a muzzle break can seriously hurt your shoulder or bruise / break your collarbone / shoulder, where all of the recoil energy is released in a few milliseconds.
With a muzzle break, it can still be painful.
McMillian Brothers came up with a shock absorber that spreads out the rapid impulse and on their Mac TAC-50 from a few milliseconds to ~20ms.
A well timed .50 semi, that redistributes that energy over 100 milliseconds feels more like someone putting their hand on your shoulder and pushing moderately hard.
Newton was very clear before John Browning every conceived of the .50BMG: If you have 12,000 ft-lbs of energy going out the front of the rifle, you still have exactly 12,000 ft-lbs of energy also going out the back of the rifle into your shoulder. If you're lucky it's spread out over time and not a 1ms impulse.
And I'll take the kick of 3 magazines in my Barrett M107A1 over a single shot from a 7mm Weatherby Magmum ANY day of the week. That 7mm really hurt!
A bolt action .50 BMG rifle without a muzzle break can seriously hurt your shoulder or bruise / break your collarbone / shoulder, where all of the recoil energy is released in a few milliseconds.
With a muzzle break, it can still be painful.
McMillian Brothers came up with a shock absorber that spreads out the rapid impulse and on their Mac TAC-50 from a few milliseconds to ~20ms.
A well timed .50 semi, that redistributes that energy over 100 milliseconds feels more like someone putting their hand on your shoulder and pushing moderately hard.
Newton was very clear before John Browning every conceived of the .50BMG: If you have 12,000 ft-lbs of energy going out the front of the rifle, you still have exactly 12,000 ft-lbs of energy also going out the back of the rifle into your shoulder. If you're lucky it's spread out over time and not a 1ms impulse.
And I'll take the kick of 3 magazines in my Barrett M107A1 over a single shot from a 7mm Weatherby Magmum ANY day of the week. That 7mm really hurt!
stephen426
New member
Since you guys are mentioning aircraft mounted weapons, how about the 30mm Vulcan Canon that is mounted on the A-10 Warthogs? Based on what I read, firing extended bursts can cause the plane to stall. Kick things up a notch and you get the 105mm Howitzer on the AC-130, which causes the plane to gain altitude when it is firing (typically while banking). I certainly would not want to see what was left of any animal hit by that!
.50 BMG - Meat fully tenderized and animal bled out
30mm Vulcan Canon - Meat is already in pieces
105mm Howitzer - Fully cooked hamburger
LOL
.50 BMG - Meat fully tenderized and animal bled out
30mm Vulcan Canon - Meat is already in pieces
105mm Howitzer - Fully cooked hamburger
LOL
What does the .50 BMG do? Think of something the mass of 5 WWII GI .30-06 rounds, at the same speed....
Spectre, Spooky, don't forget Puff, all VERY impressive. And so is the 30mm in the Warthog, just ask any Iraqi armored vehicle..oh, wait, you can't!
The P-47 impressed everyone. Except Mustang pilots.
I'm old school, a B-25 with a 12 gun .50 cal nose pack (14 if you include the top turret firing forward) is pretty impressive. Or a couple fewer .50s and a 75mm howitzer. Just don't let Stallone fly it!!
Spectre, Spooky, don't forget Puff, all VERY impressive. And so is the 30mm in the Warthog, just ask any Iraqi armored vehicle..oh, wait, you can't!
The P-47 impressed everyone. Except Mustang pilots.
I'm old school, a B-25 with a 12 gun .50 cal nose pack (14 if you include the top turret firing forward) is pretty impressive. Or a couple fewer .50s and a 75mm howitzer. Just don't let Stallone fly it!!
Model12Win
Moderator
That's BS about the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger (20mm is the Vulcan). The plane can safely dump the entire magazine in one burst and won't stall. It also won't vaporize itself or explode either.
+1 Model12, I don’t believe it either.
That didn’t sound right so I asked and got the following back from a current A-10 pilot early this morning :
“There’s no ops limit for speed when you’re shooting, it doesn’t slow down at all”
I may have some insight to the dawn of this myth. My father worked for Republic when they initially started building the A-10. There were allegedly some issues in early prototype testing where the smoke/muzzle blast etc would choke out the turbofans. The "stall" is not due to lack of airflow over the wings but the engines were literally put out by the lack of combustible air.
I'm fairly certain he told me how they solved the problem, I just can't remember what the solution was. For some reason I think it has to due with the placement of the engines.
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stagpanther
New member
Anything can stall at the right (wrong) angle of attack--even bullets.
stephen426
New member
Sorry for the misinformation guys. I read that from a book on military aircraft a long while back. I guess we tend to believe what we read if we don’t have a way to verify otherwise. Let me see if I still have that book somewhere.
Funny how times have changed. In WWII, the ground mount M2s were fitted with a scope base plate riveted to the top of the receiver cover. You would remove the rear butterfly plate and add a pistol grip/trigger plate, install a scope on it, and use it to shoot long range at the Artillery Officers directing the German field guns. More of a psychological weapon than a practical one but it worked.
In the Army in the late '60s, I had over 40 M2s in the arms room for use in trucks, M113s, etc., and all of them had the scope base on the cover. I even had a pistol grip/trigger plate plus a 10x scope set for one so the CO and I tried it once on a M2 on a ground mount. After sighting it in, it was pretty easy to hit a small tree (6-8" dia) at 400-500 yds. Blew a big hole in it when you did.