what rounds for ak47 home defense?

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Rifles lend themselves well to both of those problems and with the right bullet selection can penetrate even less than pistol or buckshot.
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I find it hard to believe that a quality .45 ACP hollowpoint would out penetrate almost any .30 caliber rifle.
 
I find it hard to believe that a quality .45 ACP hollowpoint would out penetrate almost any .30 caliber rifle.
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My thoughts too. Anyone care to expound on that? I would think that at home defense ranges (<100' at extreme most, and probably <50' for most realistic scenarios) that a pistol caliber HP round is going to deform badly enough on impact on just about anything that comparison to 7.62x39mm in any form is going to have more penetration, no contest. Not to mention what it would do to a brick, per the OP.
 
Catfishman said:
I find it hard to believe that a quality .45 ACP hollowpoint would out penetrate almost any .30 caliber rifle.
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sabo954 said:
My thoughts too. Anyone care to expound on that?
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It has to do with velocity and bullet construction. A 230gr .45 JHP moving at about 800fps is relatively slow moving. It is going to stay in a single chunk for the most part and will have a lot of momentum. At worst, the petals on the hollowpoint will expand and tear off or fold back - leaving most of the bullet intact and in a shape that is still somewhat ballistically efficient. Bigger masses are harder to accelerate; but also harder to decelerate.

A 123gr VMAX 7.62x39mm bullet is moving out at 2,200fps but starts out at almost half the weight. It also has much different construction. Because of the velocity, it literally expands so fast it tears itself into many smaller fragments. These fragments are very small and often ballistically inefficient, meaning that they shed that 2,200fps much faster than the solid 230gr mass sheds its 800fps.

The end result is that even though the 123gr VMAX starts out much faster, it actually penetrates slightly less in ballistics gelatin. The great thing about this is you don't have to take my word for it, you can click on the links I provided and see for yourself.

Here, a 123gr 7.62x39 Hornady VMax penetrates 11.9" of bare ballistics gel. That puts it exactly 0.1" shy of the FBI minimum recommended penetration.

By comparison, a 230gr .45 Hornady XTP JHP penetrated between 11.9" and 13.1" of bare ballistics gel; putting it right on the border of the FBI's recommended penetration, with all but one shot outpenetrating the 123gr VMAX shown above.

The other thing you'll notice immediately in those pictures is the large disparity in the size of the cavity in the ballistics gel. There is no question that the 123gr VMAX dramatically outperformed the 230gr XTP in effects on target while staying in the same penetration range.

Here is another helpful link from Brassfetcher as well. This one models the much discussed overpenetration theory. The average male torso is about 8" deep. In this test, they set up a block of ballistics gel that was 7.8" deep, with a simulated interior wall behind it and another gel block on the other side. 230gr Federal Hydrashok fired from a derringer completely penetrated the first block of gel, penetrated the interior wall and then penetrated another 2.4" into the "innocent" gel block.

You've got to understand that if it penetrates the FBI recommended 12" of ballistics gel, it is going to go through some interior walls if you miss - and as the link above shows, may occasionally go through and injure someone on the other side even if you do hit.

This is why my own personal emphasis is on:

1. Firing as few shots as possible to stop the threat
2. Doing everything I can to stack the odds in my favor with regards to hitting the threat
 
Tangent to what Bartholomew Roberts said, I recently shot a .45acp through a 5/16 steel plate at about 30yds. The 7.62 went through it as well but you could see the fragments sticking around the hole. The .45 just punched clean through it!
 
I hate to disagree in the face of so much evidence. But, I do. I understand that a skinny high velocity bullet will disintegrate when it hits something extremely dense, like water or ballistics gelatin. And a slower handgun round won't disingrate. But I expect a rifle bullet would penetrate walls much better than handgun bullets.

No I can't back it up but it makes sense to me.
 
Well, if you need to shoot walls, this link has a good discussion of drywall penetration of various rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds. As the link shows, even with nothing but drywall, bullet construction plays an important part and some rifle rounds penetrate less than pistol rounds.

Note that .45 FMJ and 7.62x39 FMJ both penetrate three interior walls with ease.

Another thing the link shows nicely is the point I've been repeating - if the round meets the FBI criteria for defensive use, it will easily penetrate multiple interior walls. After all, 1/2" of powdered gypsum with a paper backing isn't exactly a major barrier. Small children can penetrate that with a toy.

The result of that is that if you miss hitting a threat with the round, then that round is going to pass through multiple interior walls and present a potential lethal threat to any person on the other side of those walls. That is something you need to plan around if you plan to use a firearm to defend your home.
 
I still find it hard to believe that quality .45 ACP HP self defense ammo will out penetrate almost any .30 caliber rifle.

What you cited used FMJ ammo. Apples and oranges.

When deer are shot with high powered rifles the bullet usually passes though the deer. I have not taken up hunting deer with a handgun yet but I bet deer shot with a .45, 9mm, 10mm, or .357 mag usually have the bullet still in them.

I could be wrong but that's fine. I'm here to learn.
 
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I use 12 ga. with #8 birdshot for the first two rounds, 00 buck for the next three. My reasoning is that the birdshot will not penetrate the outside walls of my house. But birdshot at 20 feet is VERY impressive on a watermelon. Or, a bird for that matter. I've atomised several birds by not waiting long enough for them to get far enough away. 00 will penetrate furniture if the bad guy barricades himself.

Remember that after the smoke clears, you will have a LOT of very hard questions to answer, and if some innocent dies outside the house lawyers will have months or YEARS to examine every move, thought , or action you had microseconds to make. Plan ahead, and ensure the safety of your neighbors too. It would be HARD to explain to the parents of a toddler why your safety demanded the death of their child.

Rifles are long range weapons and should not be used in an urban environment
 
As regards using #8 shot, see the recent discussion in shotguns entitled "Apartment Loads." #8 shot at TEN feet penetrates about 4-5" of bare gelatin, with the deepest penetrating shot being about 5.9" in the test. This means if you get a nice, unobstructed torso shot with no heavy clothing or intervening limbs or items, the #8 shot should do the job.

If you don't have that, then you may need to keep shooting or hope the person who created an immediate fear of death or serious injury has a change of heart.

MacGillie said:
Rifles are long range weapons and should not be used in an urban environment
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Why should they not be used in an urban environment? Note that in bare ballistics gel, even #4 buckshot outpenetrates the 123gr Hornady VMax mentioned above. 00 Buckshot penetrated all the way through 16" of ballistics gel and kept on truckin'

From an "urban environment" standpoint, that shotgun with 00 is going to outpenetrate the VMax is just about every material but mild steel. The only advantage the 00 has is that if you miss the target and the house entirely and sail one out the window, the buckshot is only going to be a threat to anything within around 100-150yds. Although that is probably not going to make your neighbors much happier in most suburban settings.

A rifle may not be the answer to every home defense situation; but they can certainly be used safely in a urban environment, provided you have:

1. Proper training
2. Take some time to plan out your lanes of fire around the house
3. Choose the appropriate ammunition for the situation
 
wow great job Bartholomew Roberts im gonna get vmax for my ak47 unless something better for ak47 hd came out since. i realize this is an old topic but very useful.

my main concern was shooting an intruder with a rifle and the bullet keeps going through my house(non brick) and into the neighbor's. the vmax is what im looking for.

im also thinking about buying an ar15 and i wonder if the vmax in .223/5.56 works about the same as the 7.62x39mm vmax? penetration as well as massive wound channel?
 
While the zmax stuff seems to be a marketing ploy, I have some because it was 55gr ballistic tip....I've used it coyote hunting, seems to be vmax to me...I thought it was TAP but it works like vmax. But since the box says not for use on humans, and its for zombies....I wouldn't use it in a home defense rifle.
 
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