What RKBA restrictions would you trade?

[Tom Servo]

On "common sense regulation," I seem to recall that one being bandied about in the late 1980s & early 1990s.

Could be. Most of what I remember is "buzz off, gun nuts--the ball's in our court." Those same people now claim to want to sit down at the table with us, but we don't owe them that. Nor do we lose anything by refusing to do so.

 

[Southern Rebel]

I learned long ago that a poker player does NOT lend the other players his money for them to play on. I certainly don't intend to lend the ANTI's my rights in order that they can gamble to obtain more of my rights!

 

[HiBC]

The words defining platform issues are carefully chosen for propaganda value.
If the issue is defined as "common sense gun legislation" it follows that any opposition is lacking common sense.If it is described as "reasonable compromise" standing ground is automatically unreasonable.

Perhaps you have noticed this principle applied in the labeling or branding of other polar political positions.(No,I do not think it appropriate to bring these issues into this thread)

What I do when this trap is set up,I insist we back up and redefine the arguement.Example"I understand you wish to compromise one of our Civil Rights granted by our Creator and enumerated in the Bill of Rights of the Constitution.I absolutely will not accept your premise that such compromise is reasonable.Perhaps we can come to an agreement on some non-predjudicial terms to define our differences,as I may just as easily define your position as "Anti-Civil Rights"

 

[seeker_two]

In exchange for the complete & total repeal of NFA '34 & GCA '68, I would be willing to let all the employees of the BATFE resign without pursuing civil rights or criminal charges.....

 

[Tom Servo]

I would be willing to let all the employees of the BATFE resign without pursuing civil rights or criminal charges.

The vast majority of those people aren't doing anything wrong or illegal. They're upholding the law as written, and they're doing the job to the best of their abilities.

The fact that a few guys went rogue with terrible consequences is not enough to paint every employee of that organization with the same brush.

 

[MLeake]

I think his point was that while ATF agents may only be doing their jobs, the regulations they enforce should never have been allowed in the first place. Public opinion has been far less kind with other groups who did their jobs and followed orders...

 

[SPEMack618]

Mr. Servo, as much as I agree with you on just about everything else, I can't abide the thought of my tax dollars supporting an agency that willfully and malicously destroyed people's homes, lives, livelihood, and thier cats.

Not that I'm advocating we all go Henry Bowman, but I can barely contain my sneer and crude comments when I walk past the BATFe boys at a gun show.

 

[HiBC]

IMO,its a better plan to just excercise what I might call "professional civility" at the minimum.

I do not see what can be served by helping to create an "us against them"relationship.We might reap what we sow.

I can say"Hello,please,thank you,etc and represent myself as a civil,responsible gentleman without in any way compromising my support for RTKBA.

 

[dbooksta]

[W]hile ATF agents may only be doing their jobs, the regulations they enforce should never have been allowed in the first place. Public opinion has been far less kind with other groups who did their jobs and followed orders...

Now that we're off topic, this happens to be one I've wondered about. When I was a military officer I considered myself an "Oath Keeper," but few people in the military have been confronted with an order to violate their oaths to support and defend the Constitution.

I like to think that I would refuse under any circumstances to take a job with the BATFE or other law enforcement agency where my duties involved enforcing unconstitutional laws and regulations. But I wonder if some of those people are "just trying to put bread on the table," and reason that if not them somebody else would be in the same position, "enforcing the laws, not making them." Heck, think of the NFA branch: In a way they're actually doing us a favor by (one hopes) trying to process our transfers and registrations as expeditiously as possible so we can all comply with those laws and stay out of jail. If they didn't handle that paperwork we'd be worse off in practice, even though we're all going through a process with plainly unconstitutional elements.

Of course we have seen that there are plenty of thoughtless and even malicious law enforcement officers, and I think its outrageous that they stand behind such a fortress of law and bureaucracy protecting them from personal liability. In an absolute reckoning they would be treated like the criminals they are. But the typical officer takes an oath he can't or doesn't understand, and the rest probably say, "Gees, even politicians and scholars can't agree on whether this is constitutional. Making this call is above my pay grade."

In an ideal world we'd hold people to their oaths and say, "If you don't understand the plain meaning of the Constitution don't take this oath and don't do this job." But the government shields them from consequences in even some of the most egregious cases for "just carrying out orders." As with RKBA restrictions in general the status quo is an outrage, but the governments have built such a barrier to challenging it that I don't see any civil response that would move the needle of liberty.

[Update: I knew I had read something pertaining to this before and just found it: This is an interesting discussion of the problem as well as possible solutions.]

 

[Tom Servo]

I can barely contain my sneer and crude comments when I walk past the BATFe boys at a gun show.

The FBI has done some awful things over the years, as has the LAPD, but I'm not blaming every officer for those abuses.

We consider many of the laws the ATF enforces to run counter to the Constitution, but let's remember that the courts, the legislatures, and the general public accept the legitimacy of those laws. I'm well aware of the ATF's bad behavior, but I can't see the point in projecting my resentment about it to every agent in the field.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The problem with the restrictions discussion is that those who promote restrictions come from a starting point that does not acknowledge the RKBA in any useful form.

Do they support concealed carry? No.

Do they see armed self-defense as legit? No.

Do they think that there is a need to defend against tyranny? No.

They might say you could own a ducky-wucky shotgun or bolt action gun - that has been proposed as the RKBA before.

It is misguided to believe that restrictions are a legit compromise position that starts from strong RKBA basics. They do not.

 

[shortwave]

I'm well aware of the ATF's bad behavior, but I can't see the point in projecting my resentment about it to every agent in the field.

Agree with this statement 100%.

Casting a net of negative thoughts towards many organizations as well as all the members of same org. is usually a mistake. It may surprise some that there ARE good mechanics, lawyers, LEO's and yes, Fed. Agents.

I'm gonna go out on a 'BIG' limb here and even say politicians.

We just have to search a little harder to find them.

 

[geetarman]

^^^^ True dat.

 

[K_Mac]

Shortwave your positive attitude even encourages me, and I had my credit and debit cards stolen from a locked locker today while at the gym. It is good to be reminded that there are many good guys out there in all walks of life. With that said I would like to apply some Old Testament justice to the dirt bags who took my stuff...

 

[shortwave]

With that said I would like to apply some Old Testament justice to the dirt bags who took my stuff...

Nothing like sitting back fantasizing about what we would do had we caught these low-life dregs of society in the act. A severe thrashing with a nice piece of bamboo till their clothes are shredded away comes to mind.

Can appreciate your state of mind.... Been there.

Very sorry for your loss and hope you reported/canceled everything in time.

 

[raimius]

No, I don't accept trading in my rights.

I wouldn't accept trading Freedom of Religion for Free Speech either!

 

[K_Mac]

Thanks shortwave

I was able to cancel everything and get a new debit card issued before any damage was done, I think. There was plenty of info in the wallet (wrapped and tossed into the wet towel hamper-I was lucky to get it back mostly intact) to make identity theft a possibility. I will monitor things closely and hope for the best. A public caning of the vermin if caught was exactly what I suggested to the officer who filed the police report. He did not think that would be allowed or that it was likely they would be identified. He was not opposed in principle though.

Thanks for the good words. It is so easy to focus on the negatives and lose sight of all that is right-in our lives and our nation. Our system of government is a messy business, whether it is RKBA or countless other issues, yet I am naive enough to believe that chaos and revolution are not the inevitable conclusion to the problems we face. Of course I could be wrong and will keep my ducky, bolt, and other guns just in case...

 

[shortwave]

A public caning of the vermin if caught was exactly what I suggested to the officer who filed the police report. He did not think that would be allowed or that it was likely they would be identified. He was not opposed in principle though.

...and he(officer) would be right.

This would not be allowed due to a history of 'compromise's' or 'common sense regulations' that have been usually lobbied for by some liberal organization and put into place by some liberal minded Supreme Court judge over the years to protect the rights of the criminal. Sadly, today, in many states the criminal seems to have as many rights as the victim.

Catch a criminal in the act of breaking into your house and hurt him physically, you very well may end up in civil court being sued for physical damages to him and paying the perp the rest of his life. Even after he was found guilty of breaking into your house in criminal court.
Again, the direct results of so called compromise to laws that are intended to make us a more 'civilized' society but do nothing but cater to the rights of a criminal.

If that the result of 'compromise' or 'common sense regulations' of laws for the supposed purpose of a more civilized society, count me out....

....and you've got the audacity to ask me to even consider the thought of making deals with my RKBA Constitutional rights? Please!

I need more coffee ,

Rant over.

 

[Tom Servo]

The original question has been asked, answered, and discussed at length. At this point, we're just drifting off topic, so let's close it up.