What range, what target?

T

tirod

Moderator
Don't know? Then don't ask what's Best for doing something.

Really.

The entire point of a firearm is to place a high speed, large energy package at more than arms length range, into a target, and poke a hole in it. You cannot determine what is the best technology to do that without specifying the range - from 6 feet to 1000 yards, and what target - paper, up to an elephant.

Ballistics applications and the nature of the delivery system require that information. Once given, some lively debate can still get started, but the completely inane and wrong headed applications are instantly weeded out.

Any post that starts with "What the best" should require it.

If "What range, what target?" can't be answered, the post shouldn't be made.

It should be a mandatory rule.

It prevents the market based hype and misunderstanding commonly dumped on the OP, and puts the responsibility back on them to understand what they really should be doing - determining the range and target, to better choose tools to do that job.

"What range, what target?" means the new shooter then gets application specific recommendations, not blanket koolaid answers from fanboys with their ego tied up in self image. Which all too often happens on a lot of male dominated forums.

If anyone really wants to know what is the best, you answer "What range, what target?" From there you choose caliber and barrel length. You can't get there picking a Brand or caliber first. Hunting deer with a Colt 6920 in 5.56 may be an answer, and it may be illegal and get you jail time. Time to step back and reconsider.

"What range?" The longer the range, the larger the bullet mass needs to be, and the more ballistic coefficient becomes necessary to sustain flight. Mass carries energy, better aerodynamics lose less of it. That's not a blanket answer, tho.

"What target?" is the other half - the end result of delivering the energy is more important. Paper doesn't need large quantities of energy. Live targets can vary tremendously, from prairie dogs to humans to elephant.

"What range, what target?" sets almost all the conditions to then choose caliber, barrel length, action, optics, furniture, and trigger - in that order, no skipping ahead. Specifications are then narrowed down to the suppliers that actually meet the need, not the Brand that looks the coolest.

Once the specs are known, then the relatively minor tradeoffs are considered in light of what the overall affect will be. A properly balanced firearm, one that functions in optimum configuration, is the result.

Do the opposite, you get some of what is posted. One such configuration would include a self loading military carbine with 3x9 variable and bipod. Not optimum for either CQB or long range precision, I draw the conclusion it was made to shoot cockroaches in a maternity ward. :D

If you can't give us what range, what target? then maybe it shouldn't be asked. Why bait us into a discussion without the necessary facts?
 
Tirod tirade because he is getting tired of, "What is the best?" questions with no indication from OP what the application is. Then Junior Gunslinger Extraordinaire jumps in with what he has or wishes he had with no idea what the OP needs. I understand the frustration. OP wants to know but doesn't phrase the question well, he will get two or three good answers and 5 pages of You need XXX brand and XXX model shooting XXX brand of bullets in XXX style and weight. It is depressing.
 
Old Grump nailed it!

Browse around and you can find hundreds of "what should I buy" or "what's the best" type posts, in which someone invariably has to ask about range and target/purpose.
The OP here makes a good point in that including target and range with a question makes answering much easier.


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Seems like tirod wants the OP to be knowledgable enough to know exactly what they need a rifle for but still not have a clue about what sort of rifle can do what. Seems unlikely to me that they'd know the one thing and be completely clueless about the other. And...no matter how carefully and knowledgably the question about 'the best' is structured, there will still be a bazillion of the same answers they'd have gotten if they'd asked a dumber question. The good news is that, as always, there will be a few great answers from the usual very knowledgable folks. And there is no exact answer anyway. So just let em ask the questions the best way they know how and get the conversation going. Everyone likes to offer an opinion, and we all like to read everyone else's.
 
I don't disagree there, but most people would at least have an idea what they want to shoot at, be it deer or paper or coyote, or even some combination thereof. They likely also have an idea where they intend to shoot, be it the farm fields, prarie, woods or the range. A bit of background info would go a long way in providing good answers!
Most advice to someone wanting to hunt deer and prarie dogs would be quite different than someone who wants to hunt deer and elk, for example.
But yes, there are some great people here who will try to help regardless.
I doubt the OP was a slight on the people here. Maybe there's a way to get the message out to people before they ask though, such as a sticky or the like.

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What's the best custom built bolt action .270win on a Spanish 1943 Ovidieo Mauser 98 action with walnut stock, Leopold VX-1 3x9 scope, Timney trigger, 24" target barrel, firing 130gr Hornady SST's at 3113 fps at a 170lb male whitetail deer at 34yds from an elevated (10') stand? Air temp 37°, altitude 756 ft, humidity 35%?

That what you want?;)
 
Some folks come to these forms becouse they have no idea one way or the other. Instead of getting mad and going on a useless rant people should be more open to helping the poster who isnt as knowledgable learn. I dont have a problem trying to teach others who dont know as much. I also dont have a problem if the person is new not knowing exactly how to post his issue. I would be more than glad to ask for any info without making a big deal about it.

The only thing a rant will acomplish is stop someone else who would like to post a problem becouse they are afraid they didnt word it to someones specifications and get yelled at for doing so.
 
Yeah, I'd hate to see a new shooter, prospective new shooter, or an experienced shooter switching disciplines get discouraged or run off over a lack of stewardship for the sport.
 
Rant? The purpose is to inform and educate. You can't do that encouraging an atmosphere of ignorance.

People buy firearms for reasons - and when they don't include "What target, what range?" in the discussion, they are basically saying their intent wasn't to shoot something, but to own something that shoots.

When they ask which is Best, without specifying "What range, what target?", they aren't making a choice to shoot something. The conversation now excludes anything to do with ballistic performance, and everything to do with possession. And that's a lot of emotional and sociological baggage.

Give a 19-24 year old male $2000 they do not have to use for living expenses, and the subject of possessions immediately comes up. Gun, car or accessory, stereo, game, big screen TV, whatever, he immediately thinks of ways to elevate his own lifestyle and thus, his social standing.

My point is to separate the honest tool users - to answer their question based on what kind of performance they need, and what's on the market that satisfies that. It's not always what is marketed, either.

I have no problem with gun possessors - but they also need knowledgeable advice, as so many posts about their foibles have shown. A word from the experienced shooter could have saved them some grief.

If a potentially new shooter can't answer "What range, what target?", it's a clear indicator that they haven't given the application much thought. In this day and age of multiplying options, there needs to be something to winnow down the choices to what will be most useful.

Then their post can be correctedly read, "I want to own a gun to enhance my reputation, and I've decided that a XX type will reflect the image I want to project. Which does the best job of appearing to meet the nuances of expression?"

If they don't specify "What range, what target?" then the above is exactly what they are really asking - and I have to ask, is this a gun forum, or male psychology forum?

The elephant standing in every gun forum is that new shooters very often think of buying a gun as a rite of passage, an elevation into manhood. How do YOU intend to help with advice?

Concentrating on the actual use - What range, what target? keeps the discussion about results - not male enhancement - and at that point, it stays focused on application, safety, and use. Not coolness, Brand, and "mine's bigger than yours."

Please note those with some experience and perspective agree with this effort, and those with little are having some difficulty. Probably because they aren't comfortable discovering their actual motivations.

It's where we came from, too, in most cases. Not a rant at all. Experience, revealed, and tightly focused in a sharp detail to help put things in perspective. I'm obviously NOT selling something, that is rather strange in today's lifestyle.

Where did this come from? Hundreds of posts in this forum alone, and it's not like I saw it from the very beginning.
 
Having read through a few "Best?" threads...:D

If the first response(s) would merely ask about what is the intended use and all that, life would be easier. Unfortunately, it's common for folks to jump in with specific recommendations which might or might not be helpful. Too often, not helpful...
 
Some of you guys are missing the point...

You don't need to know squat about guns to specify application.

Now, I will disagree with Tirod in that I'm not sure it's reasonable for a new shooter to KNOW both range AND distance, or to even realize that both are necessary. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that distance is often not needed and/or sometimes reasonably implied by the knowing the target.

Knowing the target is much more important than knowing the range.

Think about it. If someone says "What's the best gun for shooting 500 yards?", there really isn't an answer. On the other hand, if the asker says, "What's the best gun for whitetail deer?", you don't really need to know the distance. Almost any appropriate gun for deer would be appropriate at any distance that someone who doesn't know what gun to use could hit them.

Right?

Does anyone think a guy who doesn't know what gun to use is going to be shooting elk across a canyon at 800 yards and, if he tries, he's actually going to hit them?

So, I think it's pretty reasonable to believe that a guy who asks the question is shooting at reasonable ranges.

Yes, more specifics would be nice but most people who know the specifics know the answer and don't ask the question, eh?
 
What range, what target?

What's wrong with those questions.

What Range would one shoot to practice for CMP-GSM Games? 200 yards unless its for the Carbine, then 100 yards.

What range should one practice for Bullseye Matches? 25 yards for Rapid and Timed fire and 50 yards for slow fire.

What target for GMP-GSM games? NRA SR (200 yard target) NRA SR1 (100 yard reduced) for the Carbine matches.

Those are just a couple of hundreds of examples where "What Range, What Target" are legitimate questions.

In my old age I more geared to get more people involved in Shooting Sports, to do this I believe we need to encourage any and all questions to grow and improve our sport.

Sure there may be, what appears to us, silly questions, but they may not be silly to the person asking the question. We should encourage them instead of condemn them for wanting to gain information.
 
I agree, to a point.

There are some guns that are good for just about anything.

For instance, if the shooter isn't recoil sensitive, he could use a .308 for rabbit hunting. He could also use it on deer at 300 yards, or targets at 100 yards.

It may not be ideal for his application, but it would probably do.

What if he wants a good all-around rifle, for all around ranges, because he doesn't anticipate having a whole safe full of rifles? Would you refuse to answer and get all upset? I wouldn't.

But I would at least hope he would specify that much, hehehe.
 
This entire thread is redundant given that, regardless of "what range, what target" a savage 308 will be the answer given.













:)
 
Finally...it happened. Statistically, at some point in this thread someone would have to mention the need for a Savage. :)

Anyway, back to the topic. Just let them ask. Even if it's a truly dumb question, which I've seen and maybe I've asked, they need to start somewhere. And as for all the pertinent details, sometimes you forget to add them. I put an ad in the local paper last week, trying to sell something, and I forgot to put my phone number in the ad. That was really bright...My wife sure had fun over that one.

Just let em ask.
 
Its certainly nice to know what the intended use is, that allows us to give the best answers.

But if the target/range is "De-ah in da woods!", I'll forgo comment.
 
What range? What Target?

I think it should be changed to What kind of conditions? Open country or brush and woods. For open country 200 yards+ my rifle of choice is a 7mm Rem. Mag. and for heavy brush and woody areas my favorite is my M93/1916 short rifle in military trim in 7x57 Mauser. It has a 22" barrel will take down deer,elk, or black bear and if necessary I can adjust the sights and lob a slug out to 2200 meters.:rolleyes:
 
What range? is meant to imply distance, not the venue where it's shot.

What target? can certainly amplify the terrain and environment. 600m at a 1" bullseye communicates a lot. Varying ranges at whitetail deer tells us it's likely broken terrain and woodland edges - not a manicured prairie (tho some of us who qualified annually know that can happen, too.)

If someone says, what's the Best gun for hunting, and leaves out What range, what target? it's a wild guess. If they say "Elk," we have a concept of normal ranges, and the conditions are implied. Elk live in their preferred habitat.

If they say, "800m and elk," there's going to be some Dutch Uncle advice concerning shooter skill and ethics, as very few could possibly accomplish it. Coming from a new shooter, tho, it's common.

The majority of new gun owners coming up are likely children of a single female parent, non gun owner, and have no prior experience handling firearms or hunting as a youth with an older adult male. Add in, only one in one hundred citizens at large have ever served in the military. 40 years ago, the odds were a 20 year old had two parents, a stay at home mom, likely did go hunting with Dad, and knew someone in their close family who served - one in ten had by the close of the Vietnam War. The knowledge of how to use a firearm was common and widespread.

It's really not surprising new shooters are missing out on understanding the most fundamental concept of shooting - they never did before. What they understand is owning something that is "restricted" to adults only, and now they can.

Asking "What range, what target?" puts the focus on what they use if for, not a social pecking order of caliber and brand name, an outdoor dress up accessory for a social occasion. That could be much more easily accomplished with a simple embellished 1911 at a barbecue. :D
 
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