What matters is shot placement. Actual bank robbery shooting.

When ever you have a discussion about bullet effectiveness some one ALWAYS, without exception, points out that "shot placement" is what counts.

As if to invalidate the discussion regarding bullet technology and performance.

Get's kind of old.

We all know that bullet placement is extremely important.

It SHOULD be just as evident that, if shooting is justified, perforating Bubba the feral man's upper torso with the best in bullet techology/performance is much preferal to the ad nauseum "it doesn't matter what bullet you use" philosophy.

Who are these guy's? Seems to be some developing evidence that a large percentage are those who have convinced themselves (and are now trying to convince others) that their lives are just as well protected with WWB or some other "budget" ammo as with DPX, Gold Dot, HST or Golden Saber.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:
 
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What we need to know about the .22.

Wounds are serious, dangerous, and deadly.

Ability to stop a violent attack quickly is very poor.

If you're determined to choose a .22 for self protection, why settle for the second worst caliber? You can always go with the .25 Auto and be armed with the VERY worst.:D

Lastly: Is a .22 better than nothing if that's all you have? Dang right it is.

Would you choose it as a primary SD weapon? Crap, no--I wouldn't.

If you needed a gun to secure food over a long period of time (in small game country) and it had to double as your SD weapon against two legged predators, would it be worth considering? Yes. :cool:
 
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@Nnobby45: The reason why shot placement does invalidate bullet technology and performance is because even using the biggest and baddest loads in 9mm, .40, and .45 it is still very low energy levels. Those 50 to 100 ft/lbs of extra energy doesn't matter (assuming you are indeed using the best defensive loads for your caliber of choice). The only tangible differences at that point (after shot placement and bullet technology) are capacity and recoil.

Its very specific. The hottest commercial 9mm I have seen is around 480 ft/lbs and the hottest .45 I have seen is around 530 ft/lbs. 50 ft/lbs doesn't make a difference and simply does not make up for the lower capacity and higher recoil of a .45. A slightly better case can be made for .40 but apparently *sarcasm* .40 has higher "perceived" recoil than .45 so therefore it is actually "worse" than a .45 with more actual recoil and lower capacity. Go figure. */sarcasm*

I mean, if you don't agree that is cool. But, I have justified my standpoint with facts and if I'm wrong at least I based it on something more plausible than what many people normally base their opinions on (i.e. I like how this one goes boom).
 
Good point above. The BG on the video was shot with 115gr FMJ 9mm ammo, but the shot that got him down was placed near the heart. Game over.
 
Shot placement is important, but shooting until the threat is neutralized is king.

Any hit on the bad guy is good for the good guy, if he continues to shoot. A peripheral hit will cause damage and effect the bad guys ability to fight. The effect may be large or small. The key is to keep hitting him until the effect stops the bad guy.

In my opinion, get the first shot off fast. Even a miss will substantially raise the bad guys stress level. Work on accuracy as you continue to fire.
 
In my opinion, get the first shot off fast. Even a miss will substantially raise the bad guys stress level. Work on accuracy as you continue to fire.
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This is rather old school thinking. Back in the 1950s when my pop was a rookie officer for Dallas PD, their training included statements very close to this. At the time it was felt that getting off the first shot, even if it was into the ground during the draw, was important for establishing a dominant position in the situation by demonstrating a willingness to use lethal force. Of course, that was prior to all sorts of lawsuits and the like, bystanders who got shot around the country, etc.

Advocating possible benefits from a miss when you meant to hit as still a good thing isn't in line with current thinking.
 
Corbon 165gr. +P 45ACP I have go 1250ft/sec with 573 ft/lbs. They are impressive and shoot well. Right now they are the 1st mag in my 1911. I agree the difference is not by much in terms of energy when if comes to pistols though. I still prefer the bigger bullet of the 45ACP, even if it weighs less its still .45 and has a better chance of hitting something when placed in the right area, imo. Plus out of everything I have shot in my life I shoot a 1911 best in 45ACP. I am most comfortable with it and can put rounds accuratley downrange quickly. I am very confident in the firearm and I believe that is important when using it for SD. My second choice is 9mm, I carry that the most in my 3913NL since it is small and easily concealed. I have complete confidence in the 9mm as well just prefer my 45. Winter months my 45 is carried and warmer times its the 3913. I feel fine with either. Sorry for the ramble post :).
 
skifast said:
Shot placement is important, but shooting until the threat is neutralized is king....
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But I'm afraid that's sort of backwards. Shot placement is one of the significant factors in how quickly and how surely the threat is neutralized.

skifast said:
...A peripheral hit will cause damage and effect the bad guys ability to fight....
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Maybe and maybe not. People, both good and bad, have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. Consider the 1986 Miami FBI shootout.

Again --

  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.
 
Advocating possible benefits from a miss when you meant to hit as still a good thing isn't in line with current thinking.
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Its has been well established that hit ratio's go way down when you are being shot at. Advocating getting off the first shot as fast as possible even if it may be a miss may be taboo these days but it is logical. In a game of inches it may turn a direct hit into a graze or even a complete miss.

If our number one priority is surviving then we do what is necessary to survive. If that means letting one go early so be it. If that means stopping the charge of the man with the Katana raised over his head even though he has a crowd of innocent women and children behind him, so be it. Do all possible to protect those innocents but do what is necessary to survive. When the two are in conflict survival takes precedence.
 
Its has been well established that hit ratio's go way down when you are being shot at....

If that means stopping the charge of the man with the Katana raised over his head even though he has a crowd of innocent women and children behind him, so be it.
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So where are the data to support that Katana hits go down when being shot at?

Seems to me that y'all are advocating spray and pray with speed over accuracy. Scary.

Yes, getting off a shot fast may be good. Getting off a shot fast just to be shooting isn't good.
 
So where are the data to support that Katana hits go down when being shot at?

Seems to me that y'all are advocating spray and pray with speed over accuracy. Scary.

Yes, getting off a shot fast may be good. Getting off a shot fast just to be shooting isn't good.
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No such data is available at the time of print. However failing to stop a charging Katanaman usually ends bad for yee with no Katana.

I am only advocating returning fire as soon as possible even if to soon to get off a precision shot.

We will have to agree to disagree with the last statement because if being fired upon decreases someones chances of hitting you then it really would be good to fire on somebody just to be fast.


Spray and pray would also get the benefits of duress however it will not likely end the threat like controller aimed fire would.
 
When the military does it, it's called "suppressive fire."

It has its time and place, but that usually isn't in a civilian SD scenario. Doesn't mean it could never have application, just that we normally don't carry enough ammo to waste any, and we often aren't in relatively clear areas as regards fields of fire.
 
Are you trying to say that in an emergency, if a .22 is all that's at hand, one would have to use that and could, with skill, make decent use of it? If so, we can all agree on that.
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Yes.

But are you also trying to say that a .22 could be a good choice for a gun intended to be used for personal defense?
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Again yes, I do know a few folks carry small semi autos in 22 lr. it is what they prefer and Iaint gonna argue with em like you guys here do. How many of ya have faced another with a gun pointed right at ya? not many so we can surmise the percentager of folks carry that will meet up with said attacker is very slim. Around here almost none.

I have said this many times, carry what you can shoot and feel comfy with. I try to get folks using a 45 but some just dont want that. go figure, and my posts were about old times, many folks used a 22.
 
markj said:
fiddletown said:
But are you also trying to say that a .22 could be a good choice for a gun intended to be used for personal defense?...
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Again yes, I do know a few folks carry small semi autos in 22 lr. it is what they prefer and Iaint gonna argue with em like you guys here do...
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And several of us disagree with you on that. Indeed, we think a .22 is a lousy choice, and we've explained why.

You may be entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that any of us have to agree with you. Several of us think, with good reason, that you're wrong; and we reserve the right to say so.
 
I'm with Fiddle the 22lr is a poor choice of self defense round. Only when it is the only viable option, IE disability or other physical impairment prevent the use of bigger calibers, should it be considered.
 
Several of us think, with good reason, that you're wrong; and we reserve the right to say so.
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So I dont have that option? to say I belive you are wrong?

I said my part, and will stick to it.

a 22 isnt somthing to laff at, it kills a lot of folks every year. I am not afraid to use one in sd which I have had exp in. When Iwas a bouncer I took a few guns off of guys brought em in to cause trouble. One guy shot me, one guy stabbed me, another emptied his 25 at me and missed each shot. I for one am not a violence virgin.

Wish I had a gun each time, as a bouncer I was unarmed while working.
 
Markj, If one of your bounced customers had returned to shoot you and you could select the caliber they used which would you select to be shot with?

Please simply answer the question with a handgun caliber that you would select.
 
markj said:
So I dont have that option? to say I belive you are wrong?...
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You have your opinion. You've expressed it. I've dismissed it and challenged it.

And you've given me no reason to give your opinion any serious attention.
 
The 22 isn't optimal at all but it WILL do the job in one shot if its really needed I have a friend serving life in prison that will attest to that. He used his 22 when he was in an unstable state of mind "drunk and higher than a kite" it took one shot from 10 feet guy dropped like a sack of bricks. He plead guilty and got life because of a "violent" history for an assault that happened 10 years earlier. Now point being when I personally asked him what the hell he was thinking he said dude it was a ****in 22 I didn't expect it to kill the guy. Just because its small doesn't mean it doesn't work. Now I'm not saying my friend is a nice guy or good person by any means all I'm saying is a 22 will kill an attacker given the shot is placed correctly and I would carry one anywhere anyday rather than carry nothing.
I prefer my .45 but sometimes carry my pf9 on hot days. So I'm not saying the 22 is th best round but it is sufficient if its the only option for whatever reason.
 
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