What makes you a good shot at the range?

C

ckpj99

New member
Handgunners,

There are tons of different shooting skills out there. From engaging flying targets to long range rifle shooting. But I would imagine a lot of handgun shooters spend most of their time at the range poking holes in stationary paper targets.

So what is "good" or "great" at the range?

How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?

How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?

I'd like to know how I stand up against the "good" and even the "best" shooters out there.

Is there a place where I can find stats like this?

Hope you guys might have some hard numbers that I can start trying to beat!

On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?
 
Last edited:
I'm good if I hit where I'm aiming at.

I'm no competition shooter, or sniper, but I'm proficient enough to defend myself.
 
There are electronic shot timers that you can use to keep track of your performance times. They will work best if you're alone at the range. Otherwise you'll have trouble with other people's shots interfering with the device.

Here's one example: http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=63

Here are some training drills and some testing standards that may answer some of your questions and provide you some ways to improve your skills.

http://www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/drills.html
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunDrills.pdf
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
 
Going of my club and the shooters we have we work on 3" groups standing unsupported at 25 yards would be good, 2" would be very good and 1" would be excellent.

6rds into a 8" circle at only 7 yards. A good shooter will be able to keep them all in at a very fast rate, almost as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Slow fire groups at 10yards, 1 ragged hole. At 25 yards see above.

It should be noted that most good target shooters are not using off the shelf ammo but rather handloaded ammo tailored to suit them and their handgun.
 
I'd like to know how I stand up against the "good" and even the "best" shooters out there
Click to expand...

Go to a match that caters to your style of shooting and compete, Look at the results.

Personally I don't care where I stand compared to anyone else. I've played that game for too many years shooting for the NG.

Now I shoot against my self, and I shoot for fun.
 
Go to a match that caters to your style of shooting and compete, Look at the results.
Click to expand...

That's the way to do it, I've won shooting a bone stock Yugo 59/66 SKS in military matches against Garand guys, and had my butt handed to me by 75 year old women (no slight intended) in other matches.:o

If you want to know how good you are, compete, it's a blast, and you'll meet some really good people.
 
ckpj99,

It has been my experience that two indispensable factors in shooting are concentration and commitment. These two cover the entire spectrum of shooting. Practise will help a shooter improve, but without these two, a shooter will be an also ran. Talent and equipment cannot pick up the slack.

The fastest man with a pistol that I know of was a thick handed gentleman from Montana by the name of Ed McGivern. Ed did things with a handgun that seem, beyond imagination. Using scientific measuring equipment Ed shot six shots from the old long action S&W in .4 of a second from seven yard into a playing card sized group. Fanning a single action colt, he fanned five shots into a hand sized group, at seven yards in .8 of a seconds. It is out of print but Ed wrote a book entitled "Fast And Fancy Shooting. If you could find a copy, it will give you goals that can drive you crazy. I don't know how deeply you want to get into this, but Hollywood finally got one right one right. There will always be someone faster. :o

At one time I did a lot of practise and demonstration shooting. The best I could do with gun in hand was six shots into a palm of the hand sized group in 1.5 seconds. From the holster I took 1.9 seconds. Time was started by a light going on and stopped by the last bullet going through a beam of light 1' square. I used to be quite proud of myself until I met Bill Jordan. Then like any man not a fool, I left my M-27 S&W in its holster. I was pretty good, but Bill Jordan was fast. At that time the PD paid for my ammo, and I had to load the .38 Spec. cases with a 148gr wad cutter and 2.5gr Bullseye with Winchester primers. In my heavy N frame S&W there was very little recoil. I got to use the departments Hollywood Star Progressive machine. That was the only Progressive around in those days.

At ten and twenty-five yards a good target shooter would shoot X ring groups. I'm not sure but I think the X ring was one inch on the twenty-five yard target and the bull was three inches. I didn't think I'd ever forget those dimensions.

If you want to time yourself there are acoustical timers available that will give you the total time as well as the time between shots for a preset total number of shots.

You mention shooting at a range. I seriously doubt if a public range worth its salt will allow the type of shooting you seem to have in mind.
 
On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?
Click to expand...

Also, if you have a smartphone, there are several apps that let you convert your smartphone into a shot timer that you can download for free (though I still prefer a dedicated shot timer).
 
Join your local USPSA or IDPA club. You'll improve to a remarkable degree in your first year, plus you'll get to meet a bunch of like-minded people.
 
If you can hit what you aiming at in quick succession you good enough.

Like others have mentioned, pit yourself against others at a competition and see what happens. The result is usually very different because there is lots of stress involved. Try Bowling Pin Shooting.
 
Morgo said:
6rds into a 8" circle at only 7 yards. A good shooter will be able to keep them all in at a very fast rate, almost as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Slow fire groups at 10yards, 1 ragged hole. At 25 yards see above.
Click to expand...

According to these standards, at rapid fire I'm very good, but at slow fire I suck. :)
 
How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?
Click to expand...
Four seconds from the draw. Really good (non-pro) shooters can do it under three seconds.
A good timer is a great asset.

You'll never know whether you're a good shooter until you compete.
It's easy to bring home your best target and think you're pretty hot.
It's another thing to see where you place on the final score sheet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=759103


How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?
Click to expand...

If the gun is an accurate one, 25 yard groups under 3" should be routine.

2254wtarget.jpg

Argywtarget.jpg
 
Last edited:
ckpj99,

As you noted in your OP, there are many different types of target shooting skills or courses of fire.

I do not care for handgun target shooting which is solely concerned with making the smallest group of holes in an unlimited time.

When I shoot a handgun it is in the defensive mode. I was taught and subscribe to the Jeff Cooper school which balances three principles:
Diligentia - Accuracy
Vis - Power
Celeritas - Quickness

When you strap on your handgun for the day you choose Vis - Power. You have what you have.

If conditions arise where you go from condition "Yellow" to "Orange" or "Red" and deploy your weapon, you may then have to balance Diligentia - Accuracy versus Celeritas - Quickness; if the situation actually calls for the use of deadly force.

In defensive pistol practice the general rule is that if you can place all of your shots inside of an eight inch circle center of mass within certain time frames you are accurate enough.

What is that time frame? It varies with distance. The longer the distance the longer the time frame which is acceptable.

In Gregory Morrison' book "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" published in 1991 by Gunsite Press in the Appendix on page 143 is a set of Skill Maintenance Exercises.

Assuming you are using the Gunsite target, it calls for:
start with facing the target
3 yards: single head shot, starting holstered, in 1.5 seconds.
7 yards: single head shot, starting holstered, in 2.0 seconds.
7 yards: pair of shots to chest, starting holstered, in 2.0 seconds.
10 yards: two shots to the chest, reload, and hit two more to the chest in 5 seconds.
10 yards: Face to the right (3 o'clock) turn, draw and place two shots to the chest in 2.0 seconds. Repeat facing left (9 o'clock).
There are more but these suffice to give you an indication of what is good or competent (as taught at Gunsite).

"Acquiring the optimum balance of speed and accuracy must be the objective of the foregoing exercises. Completing these exercises with a perfect score (no shots out of the x-ring except the head shots) indicates that one possesses a time cushion. You must make an effort to pick up speed." Gregory Boyce Morrison

Gunsite target (poor image)
OPTIONTARGETcopy.jpg
 
What makes you a good shot at the range?
Click to expand...

Practice.

How you stack up against other shooters will depend on who you are shooting with.

I've belonged to clubs in which I was the best or second best (depending on who was having a good or bad day). I've also shot with guys who replenished my sense of inadequacy.

Practicing and enjoying the challenge of improvement are what let people like me with modest talent shoot with naturally good shooters.
 
I've also shot with guys who replenished my sense of inadequacy.
Click to expand...
Ever want to really feel that sensesation RO the "god squad" at a major IPSC match.utterly humbling.
To the OP if you need to ask you probably need to practice.
I always thought the el presidenta was a good easy way to judge.three IPSC or IDPA targets at 10 meters spaced 1 meter apart. Shoot 2 rounds into eaach target, reload and shoot 2 more into each target. 4 seconds 0 points down will win this stage at any match
 
From 7 yards a preacher buddy of mine can empty his 38 into the target before i can get my second shot off. At 25 yards he is only mediocre and I'm shooting tight groups. He marvels that I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum. I would say we were both good shots but different.

You wouldn't want either of us shooting at you with a rifle with any sights but beyond 300 yards I beat him, I was trained as a long range shooter, he wasn't.

Shotgun - Birds on the wing he has me beat. Deer at 60 to 120 yards it is my deer, not his.

Like I said, both good but different.

A marksman can hit what he shoots at, method of shooting, up to marksman.
 
I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum.
Click to expand...

Really? A clay pigeon is what about a 4.5 inch circle.

I line up 10 of them 15 yards away and feel proud when I can hit 10 out of 10fairly quickly.
 
So what is "good" or "great" at the range?
Click to expand...
It all depends. I suck compared to where I was 5 years ago but am a great shooter compared to where I was 10 years ago. This difference is one of practice and consistency.

How fast can a "good" shooter unload six rounds into an 8 inch circle at 7 yards?
Click to expand...
I never did this specific test, but we used to do 9" pie plates at 10 yards with 5 shot groups from the ready position and it would take a half second to be on target and shots for me were never faster than .30 seconds (averaged) with all 5 hitting. I was not the fastest of my group. That was shooting full load 230 gr .45 acp from a 1911.

How tight is a "good" shooter's slow-fire group at 10 yards or 25 yards?
Click to expand...

For your non-professional plinker 3" and 6" for a very good shooter. That isn't competition quality, but good enough for most people's needs.

On a sidenote, I'm curious to know if people time themselves at the range, and if so, how do you do it. Is there a special timer you buy?
Click to expand...
Clint Smith is a bit noted for saying there are not timers in gun fights. It is somewhat true and at the same time a stupid condemnation. Turns out, there are timers at any recorded (audio, video, both) gun fight, only the shooters don't recognize the timer being present, but timing is often studied as part of the forensics analysis of the shoot.

Personally, I see timers as a way to measure progress and not as an opponent to beat. Unlike how some people train and maybe what Smith should have said, nobody shoots it out with a timer in a gun fight. They shoot it out with real people. Fight the person, not the clock. If just for training purposes, then you fight yourself, so to speak, but measuring your performance and the affect your training is having, positive or negative and adjusting if needed.

A guy I trained with enjoyed ribbing us on our speed when our target performance was less than perfect. He would say, "That boy is fast!" and holding up the clock for all to see. He would then add, "He can't hit squat, but he is fast! First to reload usually doesn't mean first to win a fight."

He marvels that I can hit bowling pins and clay pigeons at 200 yards with any handgun from 22 to 44 magnum.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am always amazed with proclamations substantially better performance that what the manufacturer and reviewers note are within the normal performance specs for said firearms....assuming the clay pigeons and bowling pins are of the typical standard sizes.

With an NAA mini KJ gets 5" at 7 yards. I don't see clay pigeons being hit with regularity at 200 yards with such a gun. http://www.naaminis.com/news13.pdf
 
The best way to improve your timing and accuracy is to compete with against other shooters. Joining a shooting league is a great way to do it and still not be too competitive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top