Boomer58cal
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I stand corrected
What makes the 30-06 less accurate then the 308 or any other round for that matter .
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You've taken a statement that is technically true and blown it all out of proportion. Because of its shorter case, the 308 is slightly more accurate than the 30-06, but you would only notice the difference if both were in full blown benchrest guns and the difference would be so small as to be meaningless except in formal benchrest comptition, where tiny fractions of an inch mean the difference between winning and twentieth place.
This does not mean that the 30-06 is not capable of outstanding field accuracy or that you would notice the difference in regular hunting rifles.
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Bart B. spoke the truth, the 308 displaced the 30-06 in terms of accuracy records. Even in the same rifle platform (M1 Garand).
The domination of the 308 in service rifle matches led to decreasing the scoring rings to what we have today. Thousands of shooters, and thousands of rifles, have given the statistical edge to the 308 over the 30-06.
Of course now the 223 is replacing the 308 accuracy records, at least for everything but 1000 yard shooting.
Jimro
The domination of the 308 in service rifle matches led to decreasing the scoring rings to what we have today. Thousands of shooters, and thousands of rifles, have given the statistical edge to the 308 over the 30-06.
Of course now the 223 is replacing the 308 accuracy records, at least for everything but 1000 yard shooting.
Jimro
When Palma made the 308 rifle to be used in 30 cal that end any competition on anything else being used.
Since it has no competition who's to say it's better? If it was the best why didn't US Palma scope the 308. Myself you put a lens which is available in power magnification in the front sight might as well scope the rifle then you add one of these
http://www.sinclairintl.com/optics/sights/sight-accessories/aos-microsight-prod44975.aspx
Archery match shooters with sights can use a lens their 2x,4x,6x and 8x good ones are made by Swarovski and you can get different reticles but you can't hunt with them as their considered a scope on hand held bow. they also have matches that lens are not allowed.
I don't think it much about the 308 anymore but how far the rules and be changed.
Since it has no competition who's to say it's better? If it was the best why didn't US Palma scope the 308. Myself you put a lens which is available in power magnification in the front sight might as well scope the rifle then you add one of these
http://www.sinclairintl.com/optics/sights/sight-accessories/aos-microsight-prod44975.aspx
Archery match shooters with sights can use a lens their 2x,4x,6x and 8x good ones are made by Swarovski and you can get different reticles but you can't hunt with them as their considered a scope on hand held bow. they also have matches that lens are not allowed.
I don't think it much about the 308 anymore but how far the rules and be changed.
Several years ago, Remington posted a list of accuracy standards (or guarantees?) for their 40X target rifles in various chamberings. The most accurate cartridge was the .222 Remington and with each increase in caliber and case capacity, MOA increased, until it got to the .308 Win, which, they claimed was more accurate than some smaller cartridge chamberings, then it rose again with the .30-06, but I don't remember by how much.
I contend that the difference between the .308 Win and the .30-06 in sporting rifles is negligible. For instance, my '06 Rem 700 hunting rifle shot many 5/8" groups with handloaded hunting ammo and my son, who has it now, has gotten such groups shooting factory 180 grain Rem Core Locts.
Bottom line, I think is, if you're going to shoot targets more than game, choose the .308 Win because it can be loaded to accurate, lower velocities than the .30-06, producing less recoil. However, if hunting is your thing, .30-06 is KING!
I contend that the difference between the .308 Win and the .30-06 in sporting rifles is negligible. For instance, my '06 Rem 700 hunting rifle shot many 5/8" groups with handloaded hunting ammo and my son, who has it now, has gotten such groups shooting factory 180 grain Rem Core Locts.
Bottom line, I think is, if you're going to shoot targets more than game, choose the .308 Win because it can be loaded to accurate, lower velocities than the .30-06, producing less recoil. However, if hunting is your thing, .30-06 is KING!
Don't .50 caliber Barrett sniper rifles, used for those ultra long range kills, use a cartridge that's essentially a scaled up .30-06 round?
I think there's a lot of getting cause and effect backwards in this world. A cartridge gets a reputation for accuracy and so all the serious target shooters gravitate to that cartridge and all the best rifles are chambered for that cartridge and that re-inforces the reputation making it sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.
I think there's a lot of getting cause and effect backwards in this world. A cartridge gets a reputation for accuracy and so all the serious target shooters gravitate to that cartridge and all the best rifles are chambered for that cartridge and that re-inforces the reputation making it sort of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Cheapshooter
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The Internet!!! and people who believe everything they read on It.
You must be thinking of the 338 Lapua which holds the longest confirmed kill record. The .mil uses a 50 cal sniper rifle because Ronnie Barrett made one and there was nothing else that could do what it did. Even Carlos Hathcock's famous "Ma Deuce" sniper shot was simply because that was what he had. Milspec 50 cal ammo has instability issues around 1400 meters depending on atmospherics, and anything less than that it is 3 MOA at best. Most of the "long shots with 50 cals" I've dug into are really a sniper shooting at a mortar team and managing to hit one of the insurgents, with the exception of the Canadians who actually procure true match grade ammo for their rifles.
30-06 is still legal for Service Rifle, but when was the last time you saw a Garand shooter make Presidents Hundred?
The difference in accuracy is slight, and like anything that involves statistical overlap over large datasets you will find very accurate 30-06s and poor 308s. But what keeps replacing what in the winner's circle is a better indicator of accuracy potential than "well my rifle does this!"
Jimro
Sounds like it's Bart B's turn in the barrel. I feel he knows what he's talking about. Being in the service, Served in VN 9th Inf. The M14 & M60 both 308 cal. both could reach out and toutch someone at long distances. I'm sure the Military had good reason to change from 30-06 to 308 (7.62) Keep up the good info Bart B. I'll always have your 6. Chris
MattShlock
New member
I was wondering if this thread was started to start a fight!?
My statement was in reference to the OP. I don't think many shooters are good enough to determine a real world difference in accuracy between 30/06 and 308. In addition, there is just too much variation even between identical rifles. To prove the statement would require a vast amount of shooting with a wide variety of rifles identical except in chambering to establish a baseline before even starting to develop data proving the .30/06 is a less accurate cartridge than the 308.
Not even a little bit . I really wanted to understand why some think the 30-06 is less accurate . If you would like to read the thread that got me thinking about it and where I got the quote .
Here it is - It's a long thread and covers many areas of long range shooting . The last three post is where I got the idea to start this thread
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527393&page=3
I think you misunderstood Bart's intent. Most guys are perfectly content with a hunting rifle that will put 3 shots into 1" at 100 yards. Using that criteria there is really no real world difference. But for many benchrest shooters their goal is .1". It takes a rifle 10X more accurate, and many simply cannot conceive the difference. My gunsmith shoots some benchrest and has several targets framed in his shop with 5 shots @ 100 yards measuring in the .09" range.
At first glance saying a 308 is 30% more accurate seems impossible, but a group .15" is 50% larger than a .1" group.
The way the OP is worded makes it seem that you thought a 308 is far more accurate. I don't think there is any doubt that it offers an edge in accuracy. The real debate is how much, and does it really matter to the individual shooter.
At first glance saying a 308 is 30% more accurate seems impossible, but a group .15" is 50% larger than a .1" group.
The way the OP is worded makes it seem that you thought a 308 is far more accurate. I don't think there is any doubt that it offers an edge in accuracy. The real debate is how much, and does it really matter to the individual shooter.
dakota.potts
New member
I've heard the trajectory is not as flat because of the heavier bullet weight. Not sure if that's true but it makes sense at face value
Yes that is what I was taking from the quote . ( the 308 is 30% more accurate ) and that just did not seem right so I asked here . When you put up the numbers you just did . How you explained it makes much more sense
Although not new to firearms I am some what new to shooting with extreme accuracy . I forget some times that there are guys out there that the .1 moa is a big deal and can notice it . I don't think I'll every be that good or even want to try but there was a point that I thought shooting a soda can at 100yds was accurate . Now If I'm not putting the round through the mouth of the can I'm not happy so maybe some day I'll try to get that .1 moa difference out of my firearms .
Dan Newberry
New member
In short, though this will no doubt get lost in the noise here... it's *recoil*...
There is no reason the 30-06 can't be just as accurate as the 308, but it's the recoil control that makes the difference. If one can control the recoil, then the two cartridges are equally accurate.
There is no reason the 30-06 can't be just as accurate as the 308, but it's the recoil control that makes the difference. If one can control the recoil, then the two cartridges are equally accurate.
MattShlock
New member
"I don't think there is any doubt that it offers an edge in accuracy. The real debate is how much..."
I have doubt and question the whole premise to be honest!
I have doubt and question the whole premise to be honest!
Facts follow . . . . . .
The 7.62 NATO case was made with sharper shoulder angle to minimize shoulder setback from impact from bolt closure and firing pin forces. Improved accuracy due to more consistent primer performance. .30-06 cases often had shoulder setback's of .006" when chambered and fired. Round developed from .300 Savage cases bought from Winchester and Remington. Shorter, fatter powder charges burned more uniformly.
.308 match ammo made by Western Cartridge Company (headstamps WCC58 with 200-gr. FMJBT and WCC60 with 197-gr. HPBT) was most accurate commercial match ammo ever made.
Sierra’s new 168-gr Int’l bullet shot most accurate in their rail guns from .308 Win. barrels. First 30 caliber cartridge to shoot repeatable sub 2/10ths inch groups in their 100 yard test range. First ever to shoot some test groups under 1/10th inch. Sierra then used .308 cases to test all 30 caliber bullets 180-gr. and lighter. Commercial sporting rifles chambered in .308 shot more accurate than those in .30-06 used to develop load data for their 30 caliber bullets used in the .308. All from Martin Hull, Sierra's first ballastic tech who loaded and tested the ammo used for their bullets.
US Army 300 metre free rifle teams used .308's in late 1950's to win Olympic and other international matches; was the most accurate centerfire round they tested. Winchester made solid bottom single shot M70 receivers with oval loading port on right side for their free rifles. Better accuracy than any other cartridge they used.
Ferris Pindell (Sierra Bullets’ tool & die maker) used .308 with 168's to win benchrest matches in late 1950's. Shorter, fatter case accuracy was his and Dr. Palmisano basis for their PPC ones starting in 1974.
.308 first used in 1963 at NRA high power Nationals winning the championship.
Lake City and Frankfort arsenal’s 7.62 NATO XM/M118 match ammo bested M72 30 caliber stuff smaller many-shot test groups in late 1963. 2.16" mean radius (about 6.5" extreme spread) for M72 versus 1.82" mean radius (about 5.5" extreme spread) for M118. Many dozens of shots per test group were shot. Ballistics engineer at Lake City arsenal told me in the early '70's the M118 match stuff was typically 25% more accurate overall than the M72 match ammo.
In late 1963, several dozen top ranked (best of the master classified) high power rifle competitors rebarreled their match-winning record-setting Win. 70's from .30-06 to .308 Win. Best accuracy with .30-06 and Sierra’s newest and most accurate 168's and 190's was 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards. Same quality barrels in same Win. 70 long actions built in 1952 for the .308 with ½ inch spacer in magazine and on extractor clamping ring, most shot 4 to 5 inches, some in the 3 to 4 inch range and a few under 3 inches.
1964 to 1965, virtually all the high power bolt action match rifle records set with the .30-06 gave way to the .308 cartridge besting them. .308's better accuracy caused too many unbreakable ties on the old military/NRA high power V-bull targets. USN’s and USAF’s 7.62 NATO converted Garands built identical to the .30-06 ones shot 20 to 30 percent smaller groups in their 300 yard test range.
NRA changed 200 to 600 yard high power targets’ scoring ring sizes to smaller ones in 1966. The 1000 yard target’s rings were reduced in 1972 as the .308 accuracy at long range out scored the .30-06.
Machine rest tests of .308 reloads at 600 yards in 1971 were 1/3 the size of anything the .30-06 ever produced. Match bullet weights up to 250 grains have been used with much success in competition.
.30-06 was allowed for use in Palma matches from about 1989 to 1992. Nobody built one that consistently out scored the .308's.
Virtually all the “most accurate” cartridges use powder charge weights equal to 1 grain for each square millimeter of the bore’s cross sectional area. Both PPC ones used in benchrest and the .308 are probably the best examples.
Non-believers of the above can contact those still alive of the dozens that did the tests, won the matches and set the records in the first 10 to 15 years of the .308's use in shoulder fired rifle matches by switching from the '06 to the .308 then hear it directly as I did. I've been there, done that and heard their own experiences after watching them do it learning how to do it as well.
Meanwhile, chamber a barrel with a .30-06 reamer with a 1 degree leade angle and it'll shoot almost as accurate as a .308.
The 7.62 NATO case was made with sharper shoulder angle to minimize shoulder setback from impact from bolt closure and firing pin forces. Improved accuracy due to more consistent primer performance. .30-06 cases often had shoulder setback's of .006" when chambered and fired. Round developed from .300 Savage cases bought from Winchester and Remington. Shorter, fatter powder charges burned more uniformly.
.308 match ammo made by Western Cartridge Company (headstamps WCC58 with 200-gr. FMJBT and WCC60 with 197-gr. HPBT) was most accurate commercial match ammo ever made.
Sierra’s new 168-gr Int’l bullet shot most accurate in their rail guns from .308 Win. barrels. First 30 caliber cartridge to shoot repeatable sub 2/10ths inch groups in their 100 yard test range. First ever to shoot some test groups under 1/10th inch. Sierra then used .308 cases to test all 30 caliber bullets 180-gr. and lighter. Commercial sporting rifles chambered in .308 shot more accurate than those in .30-06 used to develop load data for their 30 caliber bullets used in the .308. All from Martin Hull, Sierra's first ballastic tech who loaded and tested the ammo used for their bullets.
US Army 300 metre free rifle teams used .308's in late 1950's to win Olympic and other international matches; was the most accurate centerfire round they tested. Winchester made solid bottom single shot M70 receivers with oval loading port on right side for their free rifles. Better accuracy than any other cartridge they used.
Ferris Pindell (Sierra Bullets’ tool & die maker) used .308 with 168's to win benchrest matches in late 1950's. Shorter, fatter case accuracy was his and Dr. Palmisano basis for their PPC ones starting in 1974.
.308 first used in 1963 at NRA high power Nationals winning the championship.
Lake City and Frankfort arsenal’s 7.62 NATO XM/M118 match ammo bested M72 30 caliber stuff smaller many-shot test groups in late 1963. 2.16" mean radius (about 6.5" extreme spread) for M72 versus 1.82" mean radius (about 5.5" extreme spread) for M118. Many dozens of shots per test group were shot. Ballistics engineer at Lake City arsenal told me in the early '70's the M118 match stuff was typically 25% more accurate overall than the M72 match ammo.
In late 1963, several dozen top ranked (best of the master classified) high power rifle competitors rebarreled their match-winning record-setting Win. 70's from .30-06 to .308 Win. Best accuracy with .30-06 and Sierra’s newest and most accurate 168's and 190's was 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards. Same quality barrels in same Win. 70 long actions built in 1952 for the .308 with ½ inch spacer in magazine and on extractor clamping ring, most shot 4 to 5 inches, some in the 3 to 4 inch range and a few under 3 inches.
1964 to 1965, virtually all the high power bolt action match rifle records set with the .30-06 gave way to the .308 cartridge besting them. .308's better accuracy caused too many unbreakable ties on the old military/NRA high power V-bull targets. USN’s and USAF’s 7.62 NATO converted Garands built identical to the .30-06 ones shot 20 to 30 percent smaller groups in their 300 yard test range.
NRA changed 200 to 600 yard high power targets’ scoring ring sizes to smaller ones in 1966. The 1000 yard target’s rings were reduced in 1972 as the .308 accuracy at long range out scored the .30-06.
Machine rest tests of .308 reloads at 600 yards in 1971 were 1/3 the size of anything the .30-06 ever produced. Match bullet weights up to 250 grains have been used with much success in competition.
.30-06 was allowed for use in Palma matches from about 1989 to 1992. Nobody built one that consistently out scored the .308's.
Virtually all the “most accurate” cartridges use powder charge weights equal to 1 grain for each square millimeter of the bore’s cross sectional area. Both PPC ones used in benchrest and the .308 are probably the best examples.
Non-believers of the above can contact those still alive of the dozens that did the tests, won the matches and set the records in the first 10 to 15 years of the .308's use in shoulder fired rifle matches by switching from the '06 to the .308 then hear it directly as I did. I've been there, done that and heard their own experiences after watching them do it learning how to do it as well.
Meanwhile, chamber a barrel with a .30-06 reamer with a 1 degree leade angle and it'll shoot almost as accurate as a .308.
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