What is your religion's/church's position...

John/az2

New member
This post is NOT intended to open a can of worms.

But after a passing comment about a particular religion's stand on gun ownership I was curious as to what positions on the Constitution and Bill of Rights other religions hold.

I know many of you do not subscribe to any religion in particular, but for those who do would you be willing to share the position your religion/church takes?

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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

<A HREF="http://www.countdown9199.com"><Countdown 9-1-99</A>
 
I am not sure if this is what you are looking for John, but I found a couple of things listed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which might help. I am not a scholar in this area, so I can't offer any interpretation other than to list it. :( If you'd like, I'll edit this post and insert it here. What do you think?
 
If it states a position the Catholic church takes on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, go ahead and post it, Gunz-n-Rosie!

This curious mind wants to know...

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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
Oh goody! It's coming. There's a lot, but I'm almost finished. There are two main areas you might be interested in!

Well, now that I look at it. It's only what you were looking for in a round about kind of way. :( Does this help? If not, what other words could I look under? It doesn't list Constitution or The Bill of Rights... and it's not under law.

[This message has been edited by Gunz-n-Rosie (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
The duties of citizens

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2242The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men.”

2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met; 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor... The one is intended, the other is not.”

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow;

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s. [/quote]

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the state.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints supports gun ownership for the purpose of self defense as well as taking a human life. No big surprise considering the Mormons history.

The Methodist Church does NOT support the idea of taking a human life for ANY reason. Women are suppose to submit to rape before using lethal force to defend themselves.

I believe the Pentacostal Holiness Church has the same anti-gun philosophy.
 
The Methodist Church was one of, if not THE, the founders of HCI. So, does that answer your question?

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
I've been working on what will hopefully be a comprehensive analysis of weapons in the Bible. Current version is at http://www.donath.org/Rants/BiblicallyArmed

Summary: being armed is a fundamental axiom in scripture. Weapons are usually present and expected; being disarmed is an unusual state, usually related to a spiritual lesson. While global disarmament is a desired state, as long as evil is present being armed is a basic necessity. Christ explicitly told his followers to bear arms.
 
The Reformed Presbyterian Church considers protection of one's self, family & community a fundamental requirement. Weapons are tools for providing such protection. Many church members are hard-core gun owners.
 
As a memeber of the Church of Tactical Truth.... ;)

I shall quote Commandments 3 & 6...

3) Thou shalt be Armed, Vigilant, and Aware of thy surroundings at all times. Be Tactical when thou goest forth.

6) Thou shalt Smite evil doers as they present themselves for Smiting, and Smite them such that they do evil no more.

:)



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Bubba
IDPA# A04739
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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper
 
Please correct any misconceptions I may have here:

I've been told that nearly every church in America belongs to the World Council of Churches(WCC).

I've read that the WCC supported North Vietnam during our conflict there.

Therefore, I don't set foot in any church except for weddings and funerals. (One is the beginning of the end, the other is the end of the beginning. :) )

I do not feel I have left the church. I believe the church, like the Republican Party, abandoned me.
 
I belong to no Church, probably never will. So no Church view.

Religion. Some sort of Christain I guess. But one who believes in not forcing his views upon others and DEFINITELY not having others' views force upon himself via one of the ultimate sins, legislation. Firearms ownership and self-defence is one of my views.

I thought the WCC was a communist ally in Africa as well. Just like some Catholic clergy in Central and South America while Ivan was still a global threat and hot wars over communism were being fought.
 
Hi John/az and all,

I just finished my Catechism with the Catholic church and went through confirmation a week ago. I'm a bit late at 29 years old (smile).

My classes were quite informative as I insisted on a private tutor as I had many questions and love to study history. During the process, the priest and I would get together and conference once or twice a month to fill in any blanks the tutor might not have answered to my satisfaction.

Well, guns and self defense was one of them. My tutor was a chemistry professor at a local university and extremely intelligent; however, he is a gun grabber like many of those in academica. So I saved the subject for the priest.

Father and I spoke at length on the subject. The bottom line was that the Catholic Church condones the use of deadly force in defense of life or armed resistence against tyrrany for the reasons outlined by Gunz-n-Rosie.

Separately, Father suggested that in both cases deadly force should only be undertaken when all other available nonlethal measures were exhausted or unfeasible.

The position is not unreasonable in my eyes as one should try to avoid taking a life if at all possible. This is why we try to avoid fights when possible, police carry batons, many carry pepper spray, and others train in unarmed combat. It is this desire to avoid bloodshed that separates us from the vermin we keep firearms to protect ourselves from.

What is the stance of the Baptist faith?

Late last year I had a terrible time staying silent as I was participating in a friend's wedding service at a Baptist church. He was converting to the Baptist faith for his bride and I happened to know that their preacher was antigun and a hypocryte. He is a very small man that really irritated the hell out of me as he has a rather wide sphere of influence.

Please note that I am not taking a potshot at Baptists in general...only this preacher for reasons that do not involve his faith.

- Anthony
 
I hold to no religion. To borrow a line from the Devil's Advocate, "I'm on early release for time served." I was raised in the Pentecostal Faith and saw through their manipulation of masses early on.

A study of history will show that organized religion was created by rulers to control the masses with the fear of Omnipotent Retribution to keep the sheep in a peaceful flock.

Anyone who didn't fall into line were considered Heretic and were tortured and murdered in God's name. I believe that there is something out there, just not what religion and man have created.

Just my $.02


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"GottaShoot30, GottaShoot27, GottaShoot23, GottaShootKimber - I just wish I had more time"
 
Maybe my original post was not clearly stated.

Let's see if I can do better this time.

My question was directed at those who do subscribe to a particular religion/church. I already know the position of the individuals that post here, that is not in question. That is why you are here.

Because of the delicate nature of the religious question I'm asking for documented statements of church/religious position (like the posts from Gunz-n-Rosie, Jeff, Jim, etc.), not personal opinion about churches or religion in general.

Please save those for personal e-mail.

I hope that clears up the intent of this thread. :)

Thanks!

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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited June 25, 1999).]
 
Regardless of your personal positions on religion, these are the facts...

Our Constitution was drafted to protect our "God given rights". We see phrases like "In God we trust" on our currency and in our court rooms. We swear oaths with a hand on the Bible. We are asked to repeat when giving testimony in our court rooms, "I swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God". These are all meant to establish a high level of morality, trust, and honesty once typified by our Founding Fathers.

The important issue in government today is the severe lack of morality, trust, and honesty. Hardly any of our elected officials actually take their oaths of office seriously. And many of the "establishment's" implantees in government positions, are vowed not to God at all, but just the opposite (ref. Freemasonry, The Order of Skull & Bones, and atheism). It is with this type of devotion that our Constitutional walls have crumbled.

Imagine an atheist or a Freemason (those in the highest degrees) placing his/her hand on the Bible to take an oath of office, or to give sworn testimony. What would honesty, trust, or moral conviction have to do with their actions? See the connection?
 
John/az2:

Interesting post. I think this might be relevant.

The Talmud mandates that Jews defend themselves. This is documented at http://jpfo.org/fear.htm , among other sites.

I wonder how Senators Boxer, Feingold, Feinstein, Kohl, Lautenberg, Levin, Lieberman, Schumer, Specter and Wellstone (all Jewish, all anti-RKBA) reconcile this mandate with their actions.

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Slowpoke Rodrigo...he pack a gon...
 
See if you can find a copy of "Self Defense and the Bible" by the Reverend Anthony Winfield. Another source is an article by David B. Kopel titled 'Does God Believe In Gun Control?' that appeared in the April 1996 issue (pages 43-45) of Chronicles magazine, published by the Rockford Institute. It offers Judeo-Christian references that support the owning and use of weapons to defend oneself.
 
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