what is wrong with winchester?

I would have to go with the Mossberg, the military uses them in the 590 series and are a rugged inexpensive shotgun, easy to use and maintain, of course winchester is now out of business, and the 870 will cost ya a 100 dollars or more than the Mossberg. My experiances with the Mossberg and the 870 have been nothing short of excellent:D
 
ilisdad: After thirty years, I'm retired le, but while "on the job" I had the good fortune to work with many law enforcement agencies and my observations don't jive with yours at all. Which is why I asked if you were privy to independent evidence (i.e., documented departmental tests where the results are quantified and verifiable). If you were to rely soley on my "experience" you would believe that Ithaca 37s are known to drop loaded rounds from the gate when the slide is activated; that Remington 870s can (through operator error) be induced to jam where the "fix" is almost impossible to do while under fire and that the long discontinued S&W Model 3000 may have been the best police pump shotgun ever made. But past my opinions based on my experience and your opinions based on your experience, I'm looking for evidence as opposed to hyperbole.

It is my understanding that the military ran some extensive objective tests and eventually adopted an alloy-receivered Mossberg for service duty (I confess that I don't know just how factual my "understanding" is).
 
I've had the Moss. 500 for years. Fine gun. A friend carried one in Vietnam a lot. Saved his life many times, swears by them. His was the opinion that influenced my purchase. Wal-Mart has them for $250.00. But of course it's not the tactical version.
 
ilisdad: After thirty years, I'm retired le, but while "on the job" I had the good fortune to work with many law enforcement agencies and my observations don't jive with yours at all. Which is why I asked if you were privy to independent evidence (i.e., documented departmental tests where the results are quantified and verifiable). If you were to rely soley on my "experience" you would believe that Ithaca 37s are known to drop loaded rounds from the gate when the slide is activated; that Remington 870s can (through operator error) be induced to jam where the "fix" is almost impossible to do while under fire and that the long discontinued S&W Model 3000 may have been the best police pump shotgun ever made. But past my opinions based on my experience and your opinions based on your experience, I'm looking for evidence as opposed to hyperbole.


To be honest, all I have to go on is personal experience, and the fact that the 870 has outlasted all other platforms, and it obviously is not due to cost. This being said, I do agree that hard numbers would be fantastic, but you know as well as I do that they are hard to come by.

The closest I can come to an official study is the fact that the Oklahoma Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training will not allow any Winchester 1200/1300 in the basic or instructor firearms training. From what I can gather, the reasoning for this is twofold. 1) Due to the Winchester's design, it is impossible to place the shotgun on "cruiser safe", as the hammer must be cocked to place it on safe, 2) The folks who oversee the training have seen far more failures with this platform than the Mossberg or Remington, and a failure in training can set an entire academy back.

Again, this is basically heresay, but its all I have. I have seen, with my own eyes, more failures with the Winchester than the Mossberg and Remington. This is not to say the other platforms are flawless. The Remington is prone to operator failure, as you described, due to its shell lifter design. The Flex-tab was an improvement, but it does not aolve the issue, only training can do that. The Mossberg has a better lifter design, but the internals arent as sturdy as the Remington, and the plastic pieces found on the 500 and 590 are a liability IMO, having broken both safeties and triggerguards myself. The 590A1 cured a lot of these ailments, but at a heavier weight penalty. The Mossberg still suffers from a less smooth action, and the aluminum receiver, less of a liability that often mentioned due to its method of bolt lockup.

I do tend to agree with you on the S&W, as I have played with several of these. These guns took the benefits of the 870, and improved upon them, and when paired with Howa's fine manufacturing skills, made an incredible fighting shotgun.

I suppose when it comes down to it, all we have are personal experiences to rely on, as it is often hard to trust even structured studies because they are often skewed by tester and agency bias. Based on my experiences, only the Mossberg and Remington are viable fighting guns for me, and I own both. I feel the 870 is a functionally better weapon, but the Mossberg is no slouch.

It is my understanding that the military ran some extensive objective tests and eventually adopted an alloy-receivered Mossberg for service duty (I confess that I don't know just how factual my "understanding" is).

The Mossberg 590 was the only shotgun offered for testing. Remington chose not to submit an 870 for the trials, as they had nothing to gain. While it is true that the 590 passed the trials, and spawned the -A1 version based upon military suggestions for improvement, it did not "beat" any other shotgun, as it was a one-gun race.
 
I think that no matter what gun you buy be it a Mossy 500, Winny 1300 or Rem 870 they are all really good guns.

There wouldnt be so many of each around if they werent good guns. I really like my mossberg 500 but you cant argue with the popularity of the 870 and the name on the 1300. The only guns you have to be really leery about are the cheapo imports.

The Remington and Mossberg are both made in the USA and I'm not sure about the 1300 but if it is an import its imported from someplace like Belgium where the workmanship and materials are good.
 
I have carried the Winchester 1300 on duty now for 9 years and the only problem I have had is the improved cylinder choke. My 1300 does not pattern 00 buck well at 25 yards. With that being said, I load mine with slugs and 1 buck. Mechanically, I have had 0 (ZERO) problems with it. Also I like the ergonomics of the Winchester. When carrying the shotgun and you are indexing the trigger guard your finger tip is up on the safety (with is in front of the trigger guard), it is easier than having to change grip to take it off safe.
I know this is my experience with the Winchester and I would recommend one for Home defense or duty. Good luck one which ever shotgun you pick up.:)
 
Mossberg 590A1

The best choice is the Mossberg 590A1, it holds 8 magnum 3" rounds. It has a much thicker/heavier barrel than the standard 590. And it has a metal safety and metal trigger mechanism, as opposed to the plastic parts in the standard 590. The safety on the 590A1 is in a better location than the Remington or Winchester. The 590A1 is the only military shotgun which the makers had enough confidence to submit to the 3,000 round military test, which it passed. Remington and Winchester were chicken.
 
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