What Is Wrong With This Picture?
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
Expert?
All being in combat makes you an expert in is how you handled what it was that you went through. It may, or may not have any applicibility to anything else.
I knew a guy (he's gone now
) who jumped into St Mere Eglise in Normandy, and also went through the Bulge at Bastogne. Another who did multiple tours in Vietnam. Neither one felt that made them an expert on how to clear a block in the sandbox. While some basics apply the details are just too different.
My son spent time in the desert over there, and while he has some valid observations, doesn't think he's much of an expert in combat.
There are a lot of firearms experts who have never personally fought with the guns they know alot about. There are alot of combat "experts" that don't know much about firearms, beyond basic use and maint. So what?
One picture of someone firing a burst at something or at nothing means squat. Every fighting force, regular or irregular has some people in it that when they get into combat, do not aim, or follow the other basic rules of marksmanship. This has always been true, and likely always will be.
And even if your force is hand picked, the best of the best of the best, SIR!, there will be times when suppressive fire is useful, and precise aiming is not. Take a pic at that moment, and it looks like spray and pray is the way the "experts" do it.
I have heard from many people that a common attitude in the Middle East is "the bullet will hit if Allah wills it..." and they generally don't go much beyond that in terms of individual marksmanship. But there are exceptions...
Some of the "internet experts" do know what they are talking about. So do some of the people who have been in combat. Many don't, but think they do. Been that way along time, probably always will be...
All being in combat makes you an expert in is how you handled what it was that you went through. It may, or may not have any applicibility to anything else.
I knew a guy (he's gone now
) who jumped into St Mere Eglise in Normandy, and also went through the Bulge at Bastogne. Another who did multiple tours in Vietnam. Neither one felt that made them an expert on how to clear a block in the sandbox. While some basics apply the details are just too different.My son spent time in the desert over there, and while he has some valid observations, doesn't think he's much of an expert in combat.
There are a lot of firearms experts who have never personally fought with the guns they know alot about. There are alot of combat "experts" that don't know much about firearms, beyond basic use and maint. So what?
One picture of someone firing a burst at something or at nothing means squat. Every fighting force, regular or irregular has some people in it that when they get into combat, do not aim, or follow the other basic rules of marksmanship. This has always been true, and likely always will be.
And even if your force is hand picked, the best of the best of the best, SIR!, there will be times when suppressive fire is useful, and precise aiming is not. Take a pic at that moment, and it looks like spray and pray is the way the "experts" do it.
I have heard from many people that a common attitude in the Middle East is "the bullet will hit if Allah wills it..." and they generally don't go much beyond that in terms of individual marksmanship. But there are exceptions...
Some of the "internet experts" do know what they are talking about. So do some of the people who have been in combat. Many don't, but think they do. Been that way along time, probably always will be...
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I've been in combat. Real, honest to God shootin' war, with furrin'-talkin' folks on t'other side of the wire shootin' at us. (Vietnam).
Candidly, every firefight I was involved in was at night, so if spray-and-pray wasn't the order of the day (or night), the best we could do was fire at the general vicinity of the last muzzle flash. "Marksmanship" was a non-issue -- there wasn't any to be had because there were no visible targets to be seen.
And I will also freely admit that I spent as much time as possible with as much of my body as possible behind the sandbags as I could. No, I didn't keep my head down and fire with the weapon pointed in an unknown direction while held two feet above my head -- I DID poke my noggin up far enough to get a crude sight picture when firing -- but I wasn't exactly standing up tall and daring the enemy to see if they could hit me, either.
Candidly, every firefight I was involved in was at night, so if spray-and-pray wasn't the order of the day (or night), the best we could do was fire at the general vicinity of the last muzzle flash. "Marksmanship" was a non-issue -- there wasn't any to be had because there were no visible targets to be seen.
And I will also freely admit that I spent as much time as possible with as much of my body as possible behind the sandbags as I could. No, I didn't keep my head down and fire with the weapon pointed in an unknown direction while held two feet above my head -- I DID poke my noggin up far enough to get a crude sight picture when firing -- but I wasn't exactly standing up tall and daring the enemy to see if they could hit me, either.
jason_iowa
New member
When you take fire you should return fire even if you don't know where that shot came from(not just up in the air). They don't know that you don't know where they are. I don't know that's what this person is doing but that is a sound tactic and can save your life.
As someone who has used the "my combat experience has taught me this" argument I shy from graphic depictions but try to explain why I came to the conclusions that I do. After the Academy that's all I did was training and combat and more training. That may make my opinion an expert opinion in some minds but its still just an opinion. If you don't like it disregard it you won't hurt my feelings;-) However to take cheap shots at our service men and women who are all highly trained and then put into terrible situations is awful and you should be ashamed.
As someone who has used the "my combat experience has taught me this" argument I shy from graphic depictions but try to explain why I came to the conclusions that I do. After the Academy that's all I did was training and combat and more training. That may make my opinion an expert opinion in some minds but its still just an opinion. If you don't like it disregard it you won't hurt my feelings;-) However to take cheap shots at our service men and women who are all highly trained and then put into terrible situations is awful and you should be ashamed.
Strafer Gott
New member
Thus the attraction to informal shooting spots, rate of fire above bolt actions!
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
jason iowa said:
Where do you feel I took a cheap shot at our servicemen that I should be ashamed of? For that matter, why would you assume this was about U. S. servicemen?
jason_iowa
New member
I was talking about the vietnam vets spraying and praying. That's how they were taught to shoot the colts.
It is entirely possible that the man in the photo is not even firing full auto. You all know how easy it is to get off multiple shots on semi-auto, which is why I started the thread about full-auto in that section a while back.
It is also hard to judge the photo based on what the man looks like. Middle Easterners don't look all that different. They all have basically Mediterranean features like Greeks, Italians, Lebanese, Iranians and so on. They're all as white as I am. Well, actually, I'm more red than anything.
The AR-15 series is the most widely used weapon in the world after the AK series, I believe. However, I don't think I've seen one that looked to be is such good shape as in that photo. Maybe he just got it. Wonder who took the photo?
It is also hard to judge the photo based on what the man looks like. Middle Easterners don't look all that different. They all have basically Mediterranean features like Greeks, Italians, Lebanese, Iranians and so on. They're all as white as I am. Well, actually, I'm more red than anything.
The AR-15 series is the most widely used weapon in the world after the AK series, I believe. However, I don't think I've seen one that looked to be is such good shape as in that photo. Maybe he just got it. Wonder who took the photo?
dieselbeef
New member
everything changes when theyre shooting back...
dieselbeef
New member
btw,,does that gun look tiny to anyone else...the stock is far from him too...i knwo it could be but looks exaggerated in the pics.....
Edward429451
Moderator
I get the point but I'm not so sure the picture proves anything of the sort. He could be delivering suppressive fire, or could have the enemy approaching his position just out of frame.
Or it could be Palestines finest!
Or it could be Palestines finest!
Quote.
Senior Member
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 227 I was talking about the vietnam vets spraying and praying. That's how they were taught to shoot the colts .
They were taught not to aim hold the rifle over their heads ect and fire in the general direction of the enemy on full auto.? I always thought accuracy shooting was part of the training in the USA military.
Senior Member
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 227 I was talking about the vietnam vets spraying and praying. That's how they were taught to shoot the colts .
They were taught not to aim hold the rifle over their heads ect and fire in the general direction of the enemy on full auto.? I always thought accuracy shooting was part of the training in the USA military.
"I was talking about the vietnam vets spraying and praying. That's how they were taught to shoot the colts."
Not entirely accurate for Vietnam. During initial ambush contact soldiers were taught to return or initiate fire in 3-5 round bursts to gain fire superiority. Then point or aim for accurate deadly fire. News films depicting soldiers holding weapons above their heads and shooting in a general direction does not show the normal firefight procedure for infantrymen in Vietnam.
Not entirely accurate for Vietnam. During initial ambush contact soldiers were taught to return or initiate fire in 3-5 round bursts to gain fire superiority. Then point or aim for accurate deadly fire. News films depicting soldiers holding weapons above their heads and shooting in a general direction does not show the normal firefight procedure for infantrymen in Vietnam.
Photographs can be deceiving sometimes about what is going on, what is true and false. Camera angles and type of lens used influence the photo, a long lens compresses perspective and makes the background appear closer to the foreground objects than they really are for instance.
Another thing we don't really know is the situation at the moment he pulls the trigger. Had someone suddenly jumped out from behind a barrier and he was reacting in a split second to a threat? Who knows? I don't think his technique is really horrible, at least he's not holding the rifle on its side but I am the first to admit that I have never been fired upon and have never fired upon anything more vicious than a raccoon.
Confucius said, "A picture is worth a thousand words." What I've experienced is a picture on the internet will elicit a thousand responses and what one viewer sees is not seen by another viewer.
Another thing we don't really know is the situation at the moment he pulls the trigger. Had someone suddenly jumped out from behind a barrier and he was reacting in a split second to a threat? Who knows? I don't think his technique is really horrible, at least he's not holding the rifle on its side but I am the first to admit that I have never been fired upon and have never fired upon anything more vicious than a raccoon.
Confucius said, "A picture is worth a thousand words." What I've experienced is a picture on the internet will elicit a thousand responses and what one viewer sees is not seen by another viewer.