What Is Wrong With This Picture?

B

Bartholomew Roberts

Moderator
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This is a Palestinian gunman in Lebanon. He is using his weapon in real world combat, firing at real live people, who are shooting back at him. Is there any room for people who have never fired a shot in anger to criticize his technique? If he joined this forum, should his experience in actual combat give his opinion on marksmanship greater weight than say, a Service Rifle Marksman shooter?

Recently I had been reading a lot of "I was in combat, I know what I am talking about!" being used to justify techniques or procedures without actually defending those techniques or procedures on the basis of their effectiveness. Every time I read it, I thought of all the horrible myths about shooting I had heard propagated in the service.

I liked this photo because I thought it was one of those "A picture is worth a thousand words" moments that demonstrates that combat experience (or police experience), in and of itself, does not make a person expert (or even knowledgable) in all things relating to firearms. That is not to say that there aren't people who are expert in those fields; but firearms knowledge actually makes up a fairly minimal part of being effective in combat. You can take a squad of Marines who believe every silly firearms myth ever propagated over the gun counter and more likely than not, they will wipe the floor with a squad of Internet firearms experts.

However, I think the picture is a good reminder that if you can't explain why your technique or procedure is valid without resorting to ipse dixit arguments (appeal to authority), it is a good indicator that there is a weakness in your either your ability to express yourself clearly or your technique or procedure.
 

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I thought Bart was pretty clear:

combat experience (or police experience), in and of itself, does not make a person expert (or even knowledgable) in all things relating to firearms
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And he's right. If I didn't know the context of that picture, I'd assume "fat suburban mall ninja, about to get kicked off the range for acting like a doofus."
 
I agree there is a lot wrong with the photo, but I also fail to get your point. I've seen lots o video of actual trained USA military personel firing their weapons from behind cover without aiming. Just pointing it in the general area.
 
If you want to see how not to use a firearm just look at some videos of the American soldiers spraying and praying in vietnam.
 
I'm currently working in the UK and have seen BBC coverage of Libya and Syria. The shooting techniques demonstrated have to be seen to be believed. Jump out into the street, hold the gun at arms length by the pistol grip, blast off a magazine at full auto with your eyes closed, run for cover.

If Khadaffi had had a company of Navy Seals working for him, he'd still be in power in Libya. He's not because his military wasn't much better.
 
Very apparent in the photo is the AR. Seems that Palestinian gun men are willing to forego the supposedly "bullet proof" AK for better quality and reliability.

This should end all current and future AR vs AK discussions.
 
I'm just going to point it out but the only thing I find wrong with this picture is that his magazine pouch is on the wrong side.
 
I agree with the thread creator's statements, but this picture is representative of a situation many of us simply cannot understand or recreate through any competition or what have you. I'm sure the adrenaline overrides combat training in many of these scenarios. If a full mag dump is what it takes to get the enemy to duck behind cover so that you could get behind cover, its not going to matter whether you do it in an accurate manner or not. Just my 2 cents!
 
Ok i see. combat experience (or police experience), in and of itself, does not make a person expert (or even knowledgable) in all things relating to firearms .
But i think obvious. Being a racing car driver doesn't someone expert or knowledgeable in all things car related. What does make someone knowledgeable in all things firearms related. Some one that's designs them. Someone that makes them- someone that shots them -someone that shoots hundreds of rounds at the range each week and thinks he is a expert.
 
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I have read (if this is true), that some of the Middle eastern forces believe that the divine will guide your shots. The NY Times has a series of blogs from Afghanistan about the problems of marksmanship. Interesting read if you just search on Afghan marksmanship. It lists many problems.
 
I have a stack of WWII Canadian army training circulars. One of them specifically refers to the technique of using a submachine gun like a water hose (in some many words), because speed was essential. The fellow (or fellah) in the photo actually looks to be almost using the scope, assuming there was some muzzle rise. I certainly wouldn't want him shooting at me.

Now I'll just have to find that circular.
 
manta49 said:
What does make someone knowledgeable in all things firearms related.
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It is human nature to try and identify people who are more knowledgable in a subject than you are and defer to them; but I think that rather than ask ourselves who the expert in a given thread offering different opinions is, I think we would be better off asking "Does what this person says make sense?"

For example, this Palestinian guy has seen more hostile fire than I'll ever see. Does it make sense to mount a giant scope on 1" high rings on top of the carry handle on a 10.5" M16 and then blast away on auto/burst with your arms extended and the stock not even against your shoulder? Does it make sense to have your spare mags on your dominant side?

Even well respected people with a great deal of experience can occasionally make arguments that don't pass that test. Instead of demanding others acknowledge their experience, they should be able to explain the validity of the argument - and if all they have left is "Because I am a cop/combat vet and I said so!" they should reexamine that argument.

The same holds true for consumers of information. If someone, no matter how well respected, can't clearly explain the rationale for why they use a certain technique or procedure, you should be hesitant to adopt it.

BlueTrain said:
The fellow (or fellah) in the photo actually looks to be almost using the scope
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That would have to be one long eye relief scope with a giant exit pupil for him to be using it like that (which it isn't based on the objective size). Then he would only have to worry about the ability to consistently position his eye in the same place using that form and firing on burst.
 
Fair point. It makes sense to question advice even it is given by someone who because they have being in a certain situation is said to be or thinks they are a expert. :)
 
Lots of things wrong with that picture:

1. AR looks too small - seems like it was photoshopped.
2. Guy doesn't look Palestinian.
3. I don't believe that Palestinians use AR's...more likely to use AK's.
4. What's the scope for?

Gosh, I could go on and on, but I just think this is some kind of photoshopped bogus picture.
 
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