What is the strongest military bolt action?

I am sure someone else will be able to explain this better. I will admit that my understanding is a bit limited when it comes to PSI and actions. PSI is not the only factor you have to take into consideration. It is not just how much psi the cartridge exerts. It is how long it exerts the PSI and what area it exerts it over. We often use hydraulic bags to break rock ledges in quarrying. You can put a bag that has 144 square inches of surface area in the cut, pump it up to 3000 psi, and it not break the rock. You can then put in a bag with 576 sq inches of area and it usually will break the ledge at around 1200 PSI. The same principle applies to actions, but I can not tell you exactly how.
 
I am sure someone else will be able to explain this better. I will admit that my understanding is a bit limited when it comes to PSI and actions. PSI is not the only factor you have to take into consideration. It is not just how much psi the cartridge exerts. It is how long it exerts the PSI and what area it exerts it over. We often use hydraulic bags to break rock ledges in quarrying. You can put a bag that has 144 square inches of surface area in the cut, pump it up to 3000 psi, and it not break the rock. You can then put in a bag with 576 sq inches of area and it usually will break the ledge at around 1200 PSI. The same principle applies to actions, but I can not tell you exactly how.
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Physics...
144sq in x3000 = 432,000 lb total exerted force,

576sq in x1200 =691,200 lb

Same principle as using vacuum cleaner 5psi discharge to float a 300 lb fridge!
 
Not a Mauser style action.
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That depends on your definition of a Mauser "style" action.

Many people use "dual opposing locking lugs on the bolthead" as their definition of what is or isn't a Mauser style action. They consider rifles without the claw extractor to still be Mauser derivatives, as long as they use a two lug bolt with the lugs at the front.

If your definition of what is a Mauser style or isn't includes the claw extractor, does it also include CRF? What about those designs that use the claw, but are push feed (Ruger)? where do you put them?
 
Dual opposing lugs on the bolthead were present on both the 1886 Lebel and Veterlis before that .... before Paul and Wilhelm Mauser ever designed a gun.

So, if just the dual opposing lugs is your sole definiton, then the Lebels, the Mausers, the Mannlichers, and all of their derivatives, are really "Verterli actions".

You know that's not what gun people mean when they say "Mauser Action".
 
I agree, but some folks are just sloppy with their definitions, and some are intentionally over broad.

Since it was Mausers that spanned the world calling a dual front lug bolt design made after Mauser made that style famous and popular has some degree of accuracy. I don't think its enough for complete accuracy, myself. But I have heard it used that way.

If a rifle has enough of the Mauser 95-98 type features, I consider it Mauser style. For me, the 1903 Springfield, 1917 Enfield, even the Arisaka 38 and 99 are Mauser "style" rifles overall. There are many small differences, but overall I think they are close enough to be accurately called Mauser style.
 
I'll go with you on the 1903 Springfield because we paid Mauser royalties on some of the rifle, clip, and ammo features; and the 1917 because the British said the original 1913 was Mauser type, but I think the Arisakas too great a departure. Yes, they have dual opposed locking lugs on an integral bolt head, but the firing system is very different.
 
How? The 3rd lug is the bolt handle, it is a positive feed extractor, the bolt has a gas shield, there is a cut out in the receiver for a stripper clip, and the ejectors are the same. You pull the trigger and it goes bang. The Carcano is considered a Mauser style action and the internals of the bolt are not the same.
 
The Carcano is not considered a Mauser by anybody else I know of.
It is a Mannlicher derivative. Not every turnbolt is a Mauser.
 
The Carcano is more of a mauser style action than the 1888 was. You rarely saw a Greek Mannlicher for sale without the "Mauser" tag behind it.
 
"There is a documented case of a Type 38 Arisaka, which is 6.5mm, was chamber bored to 30-06 and fired a number of times, the owner complained about the recoil and took it to a gunsmith, turns out the chamber was cut for 30-06, but the barrel was still 6.5mm."

I've seen both the rifle and the bullets that were fired in it.

The owner came into NRA's technical staff at American Rifleman with it back in the late 1950s or early 1960s.

I guess NRA bought the rifle from him because it was still in the technical department's gun library when I was associate editor 1990-1994.




Regarding Eddystone rifles, what a lot of people don't realize is that Eddystone was a subsidiary of Remington Arms and was built on land either leased or purchased from the Baldwin Locomotive Works in the Philadelphia area.

While they did bring in some experienced people to oversee operations, most of the staff was hired never having made firearms before, and some of the quality suffered for it.

Supposedly when troops arrived in Europe, if they had Eddystone rifles those were taken and replaced with either Springfields or Winchester or Remington made 1917s and the Eddystones were shipped back to the United States for training.

True or not I don't know.
 
"The Carcano is more of a mauser style action than the 1888 was."

Yep, a modified copy of the 1889 Mauser action, IIRC, with a split bridge receiver to allow for the bolt handle to be mounted in the receiver, as opposed to the 1889's bolt handle being mounted behind the receiver.

Advantages and disadvantages to that...

Advantage was a somewhat more compact action and the fact that the bolt handle would act as a final safety lug in case the bolt lugs sheared off for some reason.

Disadvantages were no provision for charger loading of an internal box magazine and an action that wasn't nearly as smooth.

The magazine issue was dealt with by adopting the only truly Mannlicher innovation on the rifle -- the 6-round en bloc charger that became an integral part of the magazine when loaded, and which dropped out after the last round was fed into the chamber.

Some versions were modified to use Mauser-style chargers and an integral box magazine, primarily those for sale to other nations.
 
Thanks for posting the Ackley tests. Thats a eye opener in many ways.
Cant believe that the "fragile" spanish mauser held up as well as it did.
 
The Carcano is more of a mauser style action than the 1888 was. .
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The 1888 Commision rifle was a rifle designed by commitee .... and suffered because of it. And it's more Manlicher, in it's original form, than Mauser.

You rarely saw a Greek Mannlicher for sale without the "Mauser" tag behind it
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....... the same idjits put the "Mauser" on the '88 Commission rifles, too. That don't make it so.
 
"the same idjits put the "Mauser" on the '88 Commission rifles, too. That don't make it so."

Just like everyone thinks that the 7.92x57 cartridge was a development of Mauser werke, as well.
 
I can't tell you what is the strongest military action but I can tell you an interesting story.

I like to fly RC airplanes One day while in a local hobby shop/pawn shop the owner found out my last name which is very unusual. He asked if I was related to A.J. Tiroff. I told him I was and he started laughing. He said my GF was crazy. That he would shoot oversized bullets out of the rifles he built. I had no idea what he was talking about until several years later when my dad died.

From my dads estate I received some letters that had came from my Grand fathers estate. In these letters were letters from P.O. Ackley and Phil Sharpe. It seems my GF was working on loads with Phil Sharpe for the 7.61 Sharp and Hart round.

Also one letter from Ackley had Mr. Ackley talking about being able to shoot oversized bullets as long as the cartridge would fit the chamber. If the round was a loose fit it would blow up the gun. He offered to send my GF a barrel chambered for 35 Whelen but with a 30 caliber hole.

I guess when my GF received his next batch of barrels from Ackley it included the 35 to 30 barrel and my GF did screw it on a 98 action and fired it several times. That solved the mystery of what the pawnshop owner was talking about. I have two rifles built by my grand father on 98 actions. 7x57 and an 8x57. They will go to my two sons.

I was also told the story of a man who bought one of my GF rifles in 8x57 and screwed up loading the rounds and put 48grs of Bullseye in the case instead of 4350. When he fired it it blew out the side of the barrel and split the stock. The action was unharmed. My GF put on a new barrel and stock and sent the owner on his way. So the 98 action seems like it must be reasonably strong.
 
I have one of those strong Arisaka T-38's which I re-barreled it with a $99.00 Midway 20" barrel and chambered it to 6.5X57 Mauser. When working up loads, I formed some 6.5X57 brass from .30-06 cases. I started loading with Hornady load data for the 6.5X57 and 129 Hornady interlock spire point bullets. Started at the minimum and work my way up to the maximum load in .5 grain increments, watching for pressure signs. The gun grouped well with most all loads and I stopped at the max load according to the Hornady load data. Some time later, I chronographed those loads, and was shocked the see the velocity was just about 3,200 fps. According to the load data they should have been just over 2,700 fps. I had never checked the water capacity of the formed cases. I assumed, sizing down the .30-06 to 6.5X57 created cases with slightly less capacity than factory cases and I was overcharging the cases. The gun nor brass showed no signs of excessive pressure, but I backed off the loads to 2,800 to 2,900 fps. I also bought some 7X57mm brass to form new cases.
 
The "Oversize bullet" scenario is also in the PO Ackley books. As long as the barrel chamber was reamed with a reamer that was designed for the oversized cartridge, there was no problem. He reported that the bullet was apparently swaged down as soon as it hit the bore and there was no noticeable increase in pressure. Most reloaders on this forum have probably dealt with thick necks on military brass, or a neck that was too long, and the pressure problems that developed.
 
Gunplummer when was Ackleys book published? IIRC the letter to my grandfather was dated 1955.

Those guys way back then were doing experiments you don't hear about people doing these days.
 
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