Was at my local gun shop a few months ago talking calibers, and one of the salesmen (a moonlighting LEO) was packing a Walther PPK. I asked him why he was carrying such a wimpy caliber instead of the Sig P220 the store owner was armed with. He replied that the .380 was more effective than the "gun rags" suggest and that, in fact, more LEOs are killed in the line of duty by .380s than any other handgun cartridge. Numerous heads nodded in agreement at this factoid. Now, if this is true, then it seems to me that the .380 is sufficient for the cause at hand: close range "in your face" defense against an aggressor. Seems to me that if you can empty a magazine swiftly and accurately, while under stress, into a six inch circle at 30 feet or less then you can hit a perp in the face or center mass of the chest and accomplish what you have to, particularly if you choose a good load. Personally, I would not want to get hit between the eyes with .380 hardball or a 90 grain Federal Hydrashok. Now I ask this for a reason, because I have a wonderfully ergonomic, light, snag free Sig P232 that is more portable in more situations than my Colt CCO. Thoughts? War stories? Thanks.
What is the Real Deal on the .380 cartridge?
- Thread starter Dogger
- Start date
He replied that the .380 was more effective than the "gun rags" suggest and that, in fact, more LEOs are killed in the line of duty by .380s than any other handgun cartridge.
Methinks the statistics are misunderstood. The statement "X occurs more often with Y than Z" does not indicate that there may be way the heck more Y than Z around. More people are killed with .22s than anything else...mainly because there are more .22s in the hands of criminals than anything else (small and cheap).
Statistical studies and expert opinion and (un?)common sense is that a bigger, deeper hole has more stopping power than a smaller, shallower hole.
Of course, anything could do the job, it's just that some things do the job better. A single properly placed .22 can be more deadly than multiple badly-placed 9mm rounds (a video of such an event is etched in my memory: justifiably, a cop shot a fat perp 6 times with a large caliber with no ill effects, while the perp fired a single .22 round and that was it for the cop).
Methinks the statistics are misunderstood. The statement "X occurs more often with Y than Z" does not indicate that there may be way the heck more Y than Z around. More people are killed with .22s than anything else...mainly because there are more .22s in the hands of criminals than anything else (small and cheap).
Statistical studies and expert opinion and (un?)common sense is that a bigger, deeper hole has more stopping power than a smaller, shallower hole.
Of course, anything could do the job, it's just that some things do the job better. A single properly placed .22 can be more deadly than multiple badly-placed 9mm rounds (a video of such an event is etched in my memory: justifiably, a cop shot a fat perp 6 times with a large caliber with no ill effects, while the perp fired a single .22 round and that was it for the cop).
I remember taking grief about advocating a the Sig P232 for backpacking, over the .380 round of course.
We have to remember this is still a 9mm round, and its use is for close-up personal defense, within 21 feet. It will do the damage needed in MOST applications for which Browning designed it.
Will a 9x19, or .357Mag/Sig, or a .44 do more damage. Of course.
Will we hear horror stories of Bad Guys getting hit by a .380 and walk around for days without dying. Sure. But we will also hear the same about guys who have been hit by the bigger rounds continuing to blast away.
Our culture is built around the word MORE. More breast size, more muscle, more powder, more caliber, etc. Also, don't forget, our old standby "My _______ is bigger than yours", and you can fill in the blank with the term being discussed at the moment.
Some other points. You will almost NEVER have to use your weapon. The sight of a handgun, any handgun, will almost always chase off the perp (see the thread on drawing down). He/she ain't gonna debate whether your 9mm is Kurz or x19 or Sig.
And the fact of meeting a live perp trying to do you damage, as opposed to basic thievery, is, of course, fairly remote anyway. (Many states won't let you shoot someone stealing from you anyway.)
I love my P232 .380. I've had a .357 S&W and I never used it. It was too big, and too unwieldy. Will I buy bigger calibers, yes. Will I carry them? Probably not. I know the P232 will do the job if called upon.
Let's not get caught up in unrealistic "what ifs". Stay grounded. We want the anti-gun folks to do that, maybe we should too.
Roon
We have to remember this is still a 9mm round, and its use is for close-up personal defense, within 21 feet. It will do the damage needed in MOST applications for which Browning designed it.
Will a 9x19, or .357Mag/Sig, or a .44 do more damage. Of course.
Will we hear horror stories of Bad Guys getting hit by a .380 and walk around for days without dying. Sure. But we will also hear the same about guys who have been hit by the bigger rounds continuing to blast away.
Our culture is built around the word MORE. More breast size, more muscle, more powder, more caliber, etc. Also, don't forget, our old standby "My _______ is bigger than yours", and you can fill in the blank with the term being discussed at the moment.
Some other points. You will almost NEVER have to use your weapon. The sight of a handgun, any handgun, will almost always chase off the perp (see the thread on drawing down). He/she ain't gonna debate whether your 9mm is Kurz or x19 or Sig.
And the fact of meeting a live perp trying to do you damage, as opposed to basic thievery, is, of course, fairly remote anyway. (Many states won't let you shoot someone stealing from you anyway.)
I love my P232 .380. I've had a .357 S&W and I never used it. It was too big, and too unwieldy. Will I buy bigger calibers, yes. Will I carry them? Probably not. I know the P232 will do the job if called upon.
Let's not get caught up in unrealistic "what ifs". Stay grounded. We want the anti-gun folks to do that, maybe we should too.
Roon
Mike in VA
New member
There isn't anyone alive who doesn't wish for a bigger gun, more bullets and back-up when TSHTF. That being said, and in defference to the first rule of gunfighting, the best gun to have is the one you've got with you. An awful lot of people bet their lives on the .380, as it is used as a police round in some parts of Europe, and is carried by thousands of LEOs for back up in the states. I carry my 232 or Tomcat a lot of places where bigger stuff would be difficult, and I'm confident the load du jour (Corbon, Federal H/S, Fiocchi or Remington GS) will do its job if I do mine. Stay safe, M2
There is no question that the .380 can do a lot of damage close up.My feeling is that the Smith 3913, a 9MM,is no more difficult to conceal than the Walther PP and is a lot more comfortable to shoot, with, of course, better ballistics.To a large degree I guess it gets down to a matter of personal preference.
I wouldn't like to be shot with a .380, but then again I wouldn't LIKE to be shot with a BB gun, either.
The fact that the PPK was visible at all suggests that the salesman has missed the main advantage of carrying a .380, which is to get a small, concealable pistol. Perhaps the shop requires open carry and the PPK is the only non-duty weapon the salesman/LEO owns. Or perhaps...
- He daydreams about being James Bond.
- He carries the smallest pistol available because he doesn't seriously expect to need one.
- If there's a shoot-out in the gun shop, he's going to dive behind the counter and grab a Remington 870.
A smart-alecky response to his comment about .380 being the most common caliber used to kill cops would be, "So why are you planning to kill a cop?"
The fact that the PPK was visible at all suggests that the salesman has missed the main advantage of carrying a .380, which is to get a small, concealable pistol. Perhaps the shop requires open carry and the PPK is the only non-duty weapon the salesman/LEO owns. Or perhaps...
- He daydreams about being James Bond.
- He carries the smallest pistol available because he doesn't seriously expect to need one.
- If there's a shoot-out in the gun shop, he's going to dive behind the counter and grab a Remington 870.
A smart-alecky response to his comment about .380 being the most common caliber used to kill cops would be, "So why are you planning to kill a cop?"
About the factoid, did it ever strike you that 380 is the biggest round commonly available in the 'hood? The other two being 32 and 25 ACP, mebbe 22 LR.
I think the LEO was shining you on.
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured
that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts. It may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
I think the LEO was shining you on.
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured
that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts. It may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Don't forget about the Makarov - splits the difference b/t .380 and 9mmP, and can get a way cheap reliable surplus pistol in this caliber! This and .380 are plenty effective, IMO, for ordinary close-in defense vs. humans if (1) good shot placement, (2) no excessively heavy clothing, and (3) subject is not extremely large/fat and/or on drugs.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Most DGUs end with no shots fired and are
successful, so by just having a gun you are ahead of the game. If you like the gun, the
380 isn't that bad.
Lots of guys I know with artillery end up
going about town with J frames in their
pocket with 38 SPLs.
successful, so by just having a gun you are ahead of the game. If you like the gun, the
380 isn't that bad.
Lots of guys I know with artillery end up
going about town with J frames in their
pocket with 38 SPLs.
Glenn, I resemble that! LOL
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured
that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts. It may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured
that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts. It may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
I do not own a .380 but have shot a Walther at the range and really liked it size and the way it handled. The one that I really liked was either stainless or plated, I think it was a PPK??. I have two Hi-Powers in 9mm which I reload for and target shoot. If my state were to pass a concealed carry law, I probably would use only factory ammo and aquire a Walther .380 (or possibly a Sig In .380) for carry. The one I shot was not much of a target gun, but in a self-defense situation I'm sure it could get the job done.
The .380 is not as anemic as one might suggest, but I find you can locate full 9mm guns in guns about the size of a .380. But I have a .380 Mak and have owned others. I'm just under the assumption that if needed I'll empty the gun. I've seen some .380's used on the streets. In one case a fellow took a hit to the cheek of his butt and it knocked him flat and he almost bled to death. Can't argue with that. The .380 is indeed at the MINIMUM side of things, but like all decisions in life you can live or DIE with those decisions, so decide according.y.
NuclearGlock
Moderator
In reference to the guy who wears a .380 at his place of work, why would he carry such a small pistol when concealment is not an issue?
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Give me Liberty, or Give me Foodstamps!
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Give me Liberty, or Give me Foodstamps!
Chris Orndorff
New member
He probably carries it because it's light. It can be a pain to carry a large pistol all day long.
For personal defense the .380 auto may be adequate from a terminal ballistics standpoint if proper aim is taken. My biggest worry with the small automatic calibers is reliablity. Also, since these guns tend to be small, lightweight, straight blow back designs, the .380 bucks like a larger caliber pistol. The Walther PP in .32 ACP is very sweet, however, with Winchester Silvertips. I traded the only .380 I've owned (a Walther PPK/S) and would rely on a small J-frame S&W, D-frame Colt, Ruger SP 101, mini Glock, or maybe a Kahr compact if I needed something for ankle or similar carry.
Keith Rogan
New member
There is effectively no difference between a .380, 9mm, or .38 depending on which load and barrel length you are using.
Think about this. These rounds all have the same diameter and all the rounds are capable of full penetration in a human torso. So, the only real differences are the bullet design, weight and the velocity that the rounds exit the barrel.
Lets ignore bullet weight and design for the moment and suppose all of the guns are using similar expanding rounds and weights between 100 and 115 grains. These would be typical self-defense rounds likely to be carried by anyone.
The only real variable is the velocity. The 9mm has a nominal velocity of 1250 fps but that speed was measured at the factory in a 5 1/2 barrelled gun. Its now being carried by a CCW holder in a 2 1/2 or 3" barrelled gun. What do you think the velocity is now?
The .380 has a nominal speed of 1000 fps that was measured in the factory from a 3 1/2" barreled gun and is being carried by our CCW holder in a PPK with a 3 1/2 or 4" barrel. The .380 may actually have MORE velocity than the 9mm in a concealable handgun. Even if it doesn't, theres not enough difference to measure in real life terms.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Think about this. These rounds all have the same diameter and all the rounds are capable of full penetration in a human torso. So, the only real differences are the bullet design, weight and the velocity that the rounds exit the barrel.
Lets ignore bullet weight and design for the moment and suppose all of the guns are using similar expanding rounds and weights between 100 and 115 grains. These would be typical self-defense rounds likely to be carried by anyone.
The only real variable is the velocity. The 9mm has a nominal velocity of 1250 fps but that speed was measured at the factory in a 5 1/2 barrelled gun. Its now being carried by a CCW holder in a 2 1/2 or 3" barrelled gun. What do you think the velocity is now?
The .380 has a nominal speed of 1000 fps that was measured in the factory from a 3 1/2" barreled gun and is being carried by our CCW holder in a PPK with a 3 1/2 or 4" barrel. The .380 may actually have MORE velocity than the 9mm in a concealable handgun. Even if it doesn't, theres not enough difference to measure in real life terms.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
My wife carries a PPK/S and after the obligatory break-in period (in this case around 200 rounds) she's had no problem(s) with any .380 ammo she's chosen to use. Of course, the pistol tends to 'dirty up' a little quicker than some of the larger calibers I tend to use. As it's been said over and over again: shot placement is everything... I just wish she would go to the range more.
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ff ...save the 2nd. No fate but what we make.
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ff ...save the 2nd. No fate but what we make.
I wanted a CCW that was easy to carry. I chose my Sig P232 primarily because of Sig's reputation for reliability, secondly for weight, and third for caliber. I do agree that many 9mm are about the same in size (the Kahr 9 and S&W 3913 come to mind) but none of them come close to the aluminum frame Sig P232 in weight. Fully loaded with 7 rounds of Hydrashok, my P232 tips the scales at 21 ounces. I can slip it into a front pocket with no tell tale pull down due to weight. Also, the Sig P232 has wonderful ergonomics in the hand and no sharp edges. It points naturally. You are right about the recoil though -- the blowback design sends a sharp recoil impulse straight back into the hand. All in all though, it is one honey of a concealment pistol.