what is the most accurate 1000 yard deer caliber

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I think the OP got around to saying, "What common hunting caliber could I use for accurate target shooting out to 1000 yards?" eventually. And then he got around to saying we wanted something between 243 and 308 for recoil management.

Still, caliber doesn't matter. Between 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08 Rem, and 308 Win, all of them with appropriate bullets and powders will be competitive at 1000 yards.

115gr DTAC in 243
140gr BTHP in 260
162gr BTHP in 7mm
155 or 175 gr BTHPs in 308.

Really the question comes down to, "Do you handload?" because if you don't, then the 308 Win has the most commercial long distance loads available, with the 260 Rem a distant second.

Jimro
 
IMHO it is immoral, unethical and possibly fattening to shoot at deer at 1000 yards.

That and the fact that I like the mental picture of Brian banging his head on his keyboard when he reads the first part. :p
 
POST FROM H---

I am the original poster. I am certainly glad these keyboards are'nt long range rifles, however listening to all the doubtful skills at long range maybe nothing to be concerned about. I've never seen a title that told the whole story however I guess it would be a short story. Titles are only clues to the underlying details. You have to look at the preface or descriptive post to get the definitive statement about what things are about in books, articles, and even posts. I guess apologies don't count either so I ' ll start preparing for my crusifiction. There has been a lot of intelligent discussions inspite of people's diminishing reading skills once they read a title. I HAVE REPOSTED THE ORIGINAL TITLE and since its even more vague you will have to read the description to get the whole idea. Again thanks for the intelligent debate it has been both interesting and humorous.
 
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rdavidsonjr- Go with the 308. More than good enough for 1000 yard paper punching and more than good enough for 400 yard deer shots. Easy to load for,lots of info out there, will shoot bullets from 150 gn to 200 gn with accuracy.
Not sure why this thread got so blown out of whack here. You can have both rifles in one, regardless of what some might tell you here. You will need 2 different loads. One for hunting and one for long range shooting. Don't see much issue with that one. Darn cheap old savage Axis will work just fine. Boyds stock,trigger polishing job and your ready to go.
 
I'll give my two recommendations. (I think I may have given one of these already)
Ruger American Rifle in .308 or .270 Winchester, if you're on a tight budget. It likely wont win any competitions, but I'm sure it could hold it's own, unless you get a lemon.
Weatherby Vanguard with sub-MOA accuracy guarantee, in the caliber of your choosing. Should still be under $1000 and you're guaranteed sub-MOA groups with 'Weatherby or premium factory ammunition' which means if you hand load it's likely possible to get your groups even tighter.
 
Thank you JDOxO and 4runnerman sounds like you both may have been talking to my son. I'm kind of waiting a little longer to post my summation along with some interesting analyses from a Marine that lives and breaths this stuff. I may post it here and the thread on why a "308 Winchester why so popular for long range".
 
Well thanks to many for an interesting enlightening and somewhat satirically humorous post.After all is said I found that apparently several believe in the 243 and it is a very accurate round. It can be successful as a deer round but I feel it can suffer at 300-400 yards in effective knockdown power. Not saying it won't just not my top choice. That leaves the 260, 6.5 rounds and the 308 at the top of the picks with others some of which I already own listed such as the 25-06 which I think is the sweetest gun I own and the 270 and 7 m m- 08 which I don't but wish I did. In the debate on this and the discussion with my son in the Marine Corp I have learned a lot.Bart has in several post pointed out a lot of very valid points for the 308 .Black Ops had very good suggestion s and input on the Remington 700 and picks that lined up in relations to the post on 243, 260, and 308. Markco also had similar input and good ideas about the Rem. 700 and agreed on the replacing the stock. 4runnerman had much the same ideas I did when this started Brian Pfleuger I appreciate your experienced and honest input and overall trying to help referee and clarify.I agree very strongly that I will be the weak link no matter what gun I select. I also want to say thanks to Markco for reading the entire post and the input on the 260. JDXoX I appreciate your good input on the 260 and the vanguad sounds like a possible good plan. Natman thanks for the info on the 260,6.5 and scopes it is helpful
 
When I set out on this post I thought maybe there would be data to support that the lighter and faster flat shooting deer rounds below the 308 would prevail. Well not so easy . Most of the rounds are very good with today's technology but no clear knockout punch. The 6.5 or 260 rounds seem to be the top contenders to compete with the 308. There has been a growing number of available selections in bullets which starts to even the playing field and though far behind the 308 there is a growing amount of info to learn the 6.5 . There is competition proof that this is a serious contender. The 308 has the advantage in economical components and guns which is big when it comes to the cost of practicing and initial build resources. The 308 has the advantage in learning and research material.The flatter shooting calibers serve a purpose in closer ranges because it requires no hold over adjustment to hit the kill zone for deer hunting. The recommendation by my son is the 308 due to a lot of factors. 1 training and loading info to shoot the 308 is overly abundant. 2 Match bulk rounds of 308 are relatively inexpensive when compared to others in a wider variety. The mass of the 308 will tend to fight off elements such as wind, heat and different environmental pressures than smaller and lighter calibers with more consistent results. The 308 is well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info because of such a massive amount of testing for so long. I am going to make a guess on the 30-06. It used to be the snipers choice before the 308. Its best range is not 1000 but slightly further due to bullet speed and barrel twist match. Also the extra kick and chamber pressures to generate extra speed make it a little less predictable along with a cartridge that is close to great but can sometimes produce inconsistencies. The average shooter will never know the difference except recoil. If flat shooting fast rounds were the ticket for long range the government would probably have perfected a magnum caliber between 25 an 28 caliber. There was as time when the White House sniper team did used 7mm mag as its urban sniper round but not any more. Each gun has an effective range and it becomes more consistent in the last half of that range. There is a lot of science behind the fact that mass helps with accuracy in the last half and is quicker to stabilize. Any one that has used a bow and played with arrow weight has seen the same thing. Light arrows fly flat but tend to wobble longer making grouping less consistent and penetration less. Heavier arrows tend to straighten into a good spiral quicker while slower and dropping faster are more likely to group tighter. Also the heavier arrow will have a great deal more penetration. Another thing that come in this post was the accuracy of a shelf gun. While I don't have personal knowledge my son took his savage md 110 7 mm mag to the range.His Master Chief was in for a visit and wanted everyone to bring their favorite personal fire arm. This gun had nothing done to it and was still in its original plastic stock. They used hand loads but nothing specifically over tested for this gun. At 1000 yards in the prone position he shot 200 rounds in 5 shot groups. The tightest was 12.5". The average was 14". The largest with the one flier included out of 200 was 17". I think that proves that you can get a reasonably accurate gun across the counter. His thoughts are that he can teach the slowest trainee to grasp the shooting info on a 308. He said there is agreat deal of proof to the dependability of the 308. He said the 6.5 x 284 has a great deal to say for itself it just doesn't have the advantages of a 308 for learning long range shooting. His recommendations on economical long range gun was to buy a Remington 700 varmint which is the same as the Vietnam war sniper gun M40 with a different stock. Add a Mc Millan stock. DO your trigger work. His second choice was the Savage 110. If you want to up grade a little re -barrel to the same as the M40 3A and on the threaded barrel add a barrel tuner of your choice. Now the reason behind the question was to generate healthy debate and ideas. My son is getting out of the Corp at the end of the year and will start gun smith school a while after that. I will probably provide him with a project for school to build. Eventually he will get the gun any way. I wan't be carrying it on mountain hunting trips or shooting animals at 1000 yards. I will enjoy it simply as a long range bench gun with my son. When hunting season rolls around I may set on a pipeline and take shots out to 300-400 yards on deer , hogs , or coyotes just for the fun of it.
 
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rdavidsonjr, paragraphs are your friend.

My son in the Marine Corp said that the 6.5 is more accurate than the M16 5.56. The only reason it has not been replaced is the cost of research to supply the huge needs and materials to train the Corp to most effectively use them.Also there is already a huge investment in arms and ammo already on hand. to do a complete change out would be at a huge cost in replacement and training. All Marines must qualify on the M16 5.56 at 100,200,300,500 yards. It has been found that 90 % score better at 500 than any other range. Why? Reason: The bullet is not totally stable and in a perfect spiral till after 300 yards.
Click to expand...

The "reason" given is bogus. Bullets are never "perfectly stable" at any point in flight as all bullets experience yaw, precession, nutation, etc, that gives them "wobble" along the flight path. Initial instability is vastly reduced by the time a bullet passes 100 yards.

The real reason Marines shoot better at 500 is that the 500 yard portion of the USMC is the ONLY prone portion of the qualification course. The shooters shoot better from the prone position, not the rifle. http://www.usmcweapons.com/the-m16a2-qualification-course/

Secondly, the 5.56 cartridge is perfectly capable of superb accuracy and you can't compare a rack grade gun designed for war with a custom made rifle designed for accuracy.

Jimro
 
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Thanks for your correction Jimro. I will continue my research to understand some of the factors here. I m certainly no expert. It seems strange that different caliber anomalies crop up but there are no clear explanations.
 
Why? Reason: The bullet is not totally stable and in a perfect spiral till after 300 yards. Also the round is in the slight climb, level and slight fall between 100-300. The point of impact is more predictable after stabilization in the latter part of its range. The flatter shooting calibers serve a purpose in closer ranges because it requires no hold over adjustment to hit the kill zone for deer hunting. The recommendation by my son is the 308 due to a lot of factors. 1 training and loading info to shoot the 308 is overly abundant. 2 Match bulk rounds of 308 are relatively inexpensive when compared to others in a wider variety. The mass of the 308 will tend to fight off elements such as wind, heat and different environmental pressures than smaller and lighter calibers with more consistent results. The 308 is well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info because of such a massive amount of testing for so long. I am going to make a guess on the 30-06. It used to be the snipers choice before the 308. Its best range is not 1000 but slightly further due to bullet speed and barrel twist match. Also the extra kick and chamber pressures to generate extra speed make it a little less predictable along with a cartridge that is close to great but can sometimes produce inconsistencies.
Click to expand...

I truly mean no offense to your son but this kind of "information" is why we shouldn't expect someone to be a firearms or ballistics expert just because they're in the military.

1)Every bullet from every gun ever fired is DROPPING from the nanosecond that it leaves the barrel. There is no "rise". The only reason a bullet goes "up" is because the barrel is angled up when it's fired. That makes the bullet rise above the AIM POINT but it NEVER rises above the plane of the barrel. Bullets do not "rise". The principle is not caliber or cartridge specific. It is gravity and physics specific.

2)The "mass of the ,308" is irrelevant to it's flight characteristics except as they relate to one single number... the Ballistic Coefficient, BC. A bullet with a higher BC slows down less over time and drifts less in the wind. It make *ZERO* difference if that bullet is a .308 caliber or .264 or .243 or .177 for that matter. The one with the highest BC number will slow less and drift less.

3)The issue of stability is a very minor question. The ONLY difference in stability (all else being equal) between various bullets is in how they are effected by muzzle blast. Flat based bullets spend very, very slightly less time in the blast and the base of the bullet is flat, tending to get a straight push from the blast, whereas boattail bullets have the tail, which "dwells" in the blast for microseconds longer and can tend to slightly tilt the bullet because it's not perpendicular to the blast. The flat base bullet may be more "stable" for the first 300 yards or so because it doesn't need any time for it's spin to stabilize any wobble. Beyond about 300 yards, the boattail's superior ballistic properties take over and they are usually superior beyond that range.

4)I don't know what "training info" is as it relates directly to the .308 but whatever it is will apply just as directly to any rifle.

5)Load data is widely available for any mainstream cartridge and easily found for most any cartridge for which you can get a gun chambered. If you know enough to pick "Cartridge X", you'll know enough to find (or make) the data. Any main stream cartridge has MOUNTAINS of data available.

6)The availability of components is a non-issue. Fact is, sometimes it's better to have a LESS popular choice because those components are still there when all the .308 stuff is gone. Sometimes.

7)I don't know what being "well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info..." means. Barrel length effects velocity, only very slightly, and nothing else. It's NOT an accuracy issue. Barrel twist rate dictates the range of bullet weights that will work in your gun. There's nothing magical about it. Factory guns in any cartridge will have twist rates designed for the most typical bullet weights in that cartridge. Custom guns, well, you choose your twist rate, so it is what you want. "Maximum effective range" is irrelevant, since the specific discussion is limited to 1,000 yards and any/all the mentioned choices are good to 1,000, many of them better suited than the .308. Bullet weight, as I said, is irrelevant. BC matters, not weight. These cartridges are ALL plenty enough for deer at any range you can hit one. A heavier bullet doesn't make a .308 better if the lighter bullet in a 6.5mm has better ballistics.

I don't want to start this argument again but just watch this video and think of shooting a deer. Ask yourself what cartridge wouldn't do it at any range.

I know I sound like a jerk but, unless there's something lost in translation between he and you, your son has a lot of opinion and not much fact.
 
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Also Bart B has pointed out my error in another post and did so with a suggestion that explains probably the most logical explanation for some the question I and my son have debated. All I'm after is the most accurate data from the wisdom of experience and OJTor real.life experience.
 
Brian I appreciate all your info and yes and a lot is based on opinion.I take no offense to respectable debate and I am no expert or I wouldn't ask questions in a post. There are some things that crop up as regular reports when certain calibers are compared. There has to be a reason for consistent differences. I don t care which is best I was only curious to find an answer to the questions that crop up over and over in these post when arguing about accuracy issues. My son is only 26 he s done his time as a designated marksman for his recon sniper group in Iraq and faced a lot of real life situations as many before have. And really that is something that no youngster should have do but he chose the USMC and that's his job.not one that I would have chose for him. You guys have the years of experience that he doesn't have with fire arms but in time as we all do in life through time and error he will learn. I posted his thoughts.due to his experience training others on a range. Maybe his opinions are a bit short yet but so were all of us in our younger days. He is very serious about learning and maybe one day he will know all he needs to. I debate ideas on this forum with him and some of what he sees in his job. Yes he like anyone after seeing repeated occurrences any person who cares makes decisions on opinion of why. At least the comments finally got some of what I have been looking for.into the post and for that I thank you and Bart B. And others. Maybe my son is a bit attached because of his military training to the 308. I have no such attachment and really that was not the way I thought the post would turn out anyway. I will say this maybe I m stupid for this post but I m a little more.informed because of it so thanks. I still wonder why so many who appear to be so knowledgeable about long range and argue so much for the 308 in these post now shy away from getting to the point on educated reasons why. So give me a logical pick or say they are all equivelant in offering enough favorable factors that make them all equal in accurate range shooting. I never claimed to be an expert in knowledge or shooting ability just intrigued with learning and expanding on enjoyment with firearms
 
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And I will certainly let my son know he needs to get his self educated on the facts. Thanks for the education
 
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Deepest respect to your son, sir. Thank him for his service, for me. Seriously.

I suppose there is some sentimental attachment to what you've used and know and especially what might be seen as having saved your life.

A lot of the "consistent differences" come down to what's called Confirmation Bias. That is, we tend to look for information that confirms what we already believe and ignore that which doesn't.

The thing to do is to NOT decide what we like and then look for why it's better but to instead examine what "better" means and then to look for what has the qualities that make "better".

I went through this a couple years ago, looking for a deer cartridge. I have a distaste for "common" or popular things. I wanted something different but not so different that I couldn't get brass or it was a huge ordeal. Every question I asked kept landing me at .243Win. I didn't want it to, it's too common, too ordinary, too "everybody and their brother"... but there it was, over and over again. Ballistics, recoil, case availability, sufficient energy, bullet selection, on and on.

Sure, plenty of other cartridges are good answers to any of those questions but the .243 makes EVERY list, near the top, EVERY time.

I hated that, it wasn't the answer I wanted.... So I went .243AI instead, just to be different. :D It's practically the same but enough different to be different so it's exactly what I wanted while still being a "correct" answer to the factual questions.
 
There is a lot to be said for attachment to and faith in a particular cartridge. My father a WWII Vet had more faith in the .30-06 than perhaps even it deserved. You could give him a .30-30, or .243 or 7 Mag with a scope and he would do OK with it, but give him a plain jane old 30-06 whether it be an old springfield, or a Rem 700 or even a 742 and his demeanor changed, how he held it changed and with iron sights he would absolutely pound targets around the pasture with it at distances he couldn't do with a scoped .243. As he said when you live/fight and trust your life to something 24 hrs a day for 2 1/2 years you sort of begin to believe in it.

As Brian said, give our thanks and respect to your son for his service.
 
My favorite long range gun for 300-600 is a Remington 721 in 300 H&H. I have used this Elk hunting for many years and Whitetail in Tx for over 10. I like the fact that it will stabilize small and large bullets more efficiently than other 30 cal magnums. I paired it with a leupold 6-20-44 and have loved the combo with 180 grn. Bt's. I load 130 bt's for whitetail and coyotes and get good accuracy as well. The gun can be found for 450 or so. They are older guns from the 50's but have good looks.
 
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