What is the "Lock" on S&W revolvers

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monk d said:
Yes I see the difference in the frame, less curved.

I realize both guns in DJ's post are 22s with frame-mounted firing pins, but be aware that part of the difference in curvature on CF guns is the result of switching from a hammer-mounted firing pin to a frame-mounted firing pin, which necessitated additional room at the top of the curve to fit. Like the cylinder release, this switch happened before The Lock was introduced.

At any rate, one doesn't have to use The Lock. I don't know anyone who does. Just keep the gun as clean and maintained as any pre-lock gun, and it'll run as reliably.
 
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That lock, to put it mildly, sure aroused some hard feelings, including vicious rants and death threats. Things seem to have died down now, but not long ago I read yet another ridiculous story about thousands of people killed when their S&W's locked up. :rolleyes:

Jim
 
From 44 AMP:

S&W was owned, at the time, by Thompkins LLC, a British holding company. THEY decided S&W would be the first on the Clinton's bandwagon. SO, we got the Hillary Hole.

This information is incorrect.

In 1999 S&W, owned by the British owned Tompkins, was losing a good deal of money on their revolvers. Bob Scott, a vice president of business development at S&W pushed the idea of installing locks in their revolvers. In 1999 he resigned and joined a holding company called Saf-T-Hammer. In the following years it developed an internal hammer for S&W revolvers. The company had no production facilities only an office and money from investors and an inside track at S&W. It was formed with the intention of producing locks for S&W revolvers and other safety products.

In 2000 S&W entered into an agreement with the Clinton Administration:

On March 17, 2000, Smith & Wesson made an agreement with US President Bill Clinton under which it would implement changes in the design and distribution of its firearms in return for "preferred buying program" to offset the loss of revenue as a result of anticipated boycott.[7] The agreement stated that all authorized dealers and distributors of Smith & Wesson's products had to abide by a “code of conduct” to eliminate the sale of firearms to prohibited persons, dealers had to agree to not allow children under 18 access, without an adult, to gun shops or sections of stores that contained firearms.[7]

As expected, thousands of retailers and tens of thousands of firearms consumers boycotted Smith & Wesson.[8]

There was a boycott of S&W after the agreement was signed.

In Jan. 20th 2001 William Jefferson Clinton left office.

In March 2001 Tompkins sold S&W for a low price to Saf-T-Hammer. Saf-T-Hammer's President was Bob Scott. Saf-T-Hammer was created to buy S&W and install locks in guns.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Smith...T-Hammer+Corp.;+Robert+L.+Scott...-a057591283

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/s...iousCapId=31232183&previousTitle=COVIDIEN PLC

In 2001 the first guns with internal locks were sold.

The truth is that Clinton was out of office and Tompkins no longer owned S&W so no agreement between them was in place. Hillary Clinton had no role in any of this at any time.

Tompkins and the Clinton administration are partly to blame. But mostly it was because money could be made by the owners of S&W by putting locks on the guns. Hillary Clinto did not force them to.

However the new owners of S&W would install the locks and make money.

Robert "Bob" Scott became a vice President at S&W again.

You can read some of the many articles published on this at the time:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2001/05/14/daily1.html

http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa010515.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson#Clinton_agreement

tipoc
 
Would I rather have a S&W without the lock? Yes. Would I also rather have a 1911 without the grip safety? Yes and double yes! The bottom line is that the "Hillary Hole" is less intrusive (to me anyway) than a big fat grip safety squirming in the web of my hand. I don't have to touch the Hillary Hole....if I don't want to.
 
Verifiable instances of it locking under heavy recoil.

If memory serves, this whole thing got started by someone with an ax to grind who speculated that it could happen. The rumor mill quickly escalated that to it did happen. Influenced by the snowballing myth, folks who'd forgotten they'd locked their guns began swearing up and down that it had indeed happened to them. At some point, S&W felt the pressure and tested to see whether they could even make it happen. As I recall, they couldn't.

Let's just agree the lock is ugly and leave it at that.
 
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I have not had it happen, but there are verifiable cases of the lock engaging while shooting. This could be extremely rare bu, I have no idea how many proven cases there are vs. how many guns with the lock are out there. I do find it interesting that, even Jerry M has the lock flag removed from his guns. There are several pictures floating around that clearly show this.
 
S&W makes money off the locks. That's why they put them in in the first place and that's why they are still in the guns 13 years after W.J. Clinton left office.

If a fella doesn't like them they can be removed or nullified.

I don't like the term "Hillary Hole". It's flat out disrespectful to women in general. The point of the phrase is to compare the lock to female sex organs so a fella can make adolescent jokes; "I hate the Hillary Hole and won't touch it", etc. The men who use the term know it is disrespectful to women in general, that's the point, but continue to use it anyway.

It's also not accurate to say H. Clinton had anything much to do with it. She held no elected office at the time that would have impacted that. She held no office at all.

I also abhor folks taking cheap shots at any elected officials of any party or independents. They are elected reps and the office deserves some respect. I'll give them their lumps straight forward. Critiquing their accents, sex, religion, color, etc. is cheap and low down as I see it.

tipoc
 
even Jerry M has the lock flag removed from his guns. There are several pictures floating around that clearly show this.

Many competitive revolver shooters remove the lock, but it's not because they're realistically expecting a lock failure. It's because when tuning the gun, if it ain't necessary, there's no point keeping it in there. For the same reason, many USPSA revolver shooters remove the hammer block from their tuned guns as well (can't remove it in IDPA).

BTW, these top shooters put tens of thousands of rounds downrange every year, yet find little or no need to worry about The Lock, MIM parts, etc.
 
Are all S&W's keyed alike?

As far as I know they are. I bought a 642 with a lock but no keys. Eventually I was sitting here one afternoon, and called S&W and asked them to send me a couple. They didn't even ask what kind of gun I had. Got them a few days later. They work.

I doubt I'll ever use them again, but I've got them.
 
I don't like the term "Hillary Hole". It's flat out disrespectful to women in general. The point of the phrase is to compare the lock to female sex organs so a fella can make adolescent jokes; "I hate the Hillary Hole and won't touch it", etc. The men who use the term know it is disrespectful to women in general, that's the point, but continue to use it anyway.

Hear hear!

I'm glad somebody said this. I too find the term 'Hillary Hole' vulgar and disrespectful.
 
Sojourn, they’re all the same. They are not even keys in the traditional sense but just an inverted allen wrench. Every new revolver comes with two in a zip lock bag. Thought I had thrown all mine out, but found a couple to show you:

keys.jpg

key.jpg
 
The pictures that Driftwood Johnson posted are extremely helpful in understanding exactly how the lock works. When engaged, the "flag" rotates up and back and the small tab on the "flag" engages a slot in the hammer thus preventing it from moving. Once you understand how the lock works, it makes many of the so-called reports of it self-engaging very suspect. You see, in addition to the lock "flag" being held down under spring pressure unless manually engaged, it is also held down by inertia when the gun recoils. Likewise, the slot in the the hammer that the "flag" tab engages in only aligned when the action is at rest. When the hammer is fully forward against the firing pin, as it would be when the revolver is fired, the "flag" is blocked from moving up into engagement by the hammer itself.

Therefore, in my estimation, if the lock were to render a revolver inoperable without being manually engaged, it would almost certainly be due to defective (i.e. broken) parts, grossly out-of-spec parts, or parts which were installed improperly. As such, a genuine "auto lock" (as opposed to a different problem which is mistakenly blamed on the lock) would almost certainly be a quality-control issue rather than a design issue. While there are many unverified reports of "auto-lock" (as in anonymous internet posts), when one starts looking into the details of these reports they usually either don't support the claim of "auto lock" or are missing all together. I am of the opinion that the lock, at worst, represents no greater detriment to the overall reliability of a S&W revolver than any other QC issue.

Now, I can understand why some might dislike the lock because of the aesthetics of it or because of the politics they feel it represents. Those are matters of personal opinion and there's really no point in trying to debate it. However, the contention that the lock represents a significant detriment to the reliability of the gun is, at best, poorly supported. Given the emotional response of some of the lock detractors (such as the use of childish invectives like "Hillary Hole," "Smith & Clinton," or "Safety Wesson") when their claims are challenged, I suspect that a great many of these claims are based in an attempt to justify personal opinion rather than fact.
 
I don't like the term "Hillary Hole". It's flat out disrespectful to women in general. The point of the phrase is to compare the lock to female sex organs so a fella can make adolescent jokes; "I hate the Hillary Hole and won't touch it", etc. The men who use the term know it is disrespectful to women in general, that's the point, but continue to use it anyway.

I wish I had been the first one to say this, but tipoc said it a lot better than I ever could.

Amen Brother. Amen.

It just needs to go away.
 
I wish you guys would either pony up or quit perpetuating this.

It happened to me. I won't post my actual name, but you have my word I am a real person. My 340PD had the lock engage while shooting 38 +P ammunition. Fortunately it was at the shooting range right after I bought it and was trying it out. Recoil caused the flag to jump into engagement, making the gun unshootable until I went home and found the key.

I still carry this gun for self defense, but the lock parts have long since been removed and are in a small plastic bag in the factory box.

All Taurus handguns have locks. Are the locks similar on their revolvers?

Taurus put their lock on the back of the hammer. Their solution is much less noticeable and better executed than Smith's IMO.
 
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"The lock is S&W's symbol of how they caved to the left."

That's what they said about Iver Johnson's "hammer the hammer safety"...

:rolleyes:
 
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