What is the best defensive round type for the .38 snubbie?

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I tested Federal 125gr Nyclad (standard pressure) with my 2" M60 this morning. Terminal performance in bare gelatin met my expectations, but I was shocked, SHOCKED, when all five bullets failed to expand after passing through 4 layers of heavy denim cloth. The bullets all zipped right through my 18" calibrated gelatin blocks.

I'm finding that denim covered gelatin is a very stressing test for many bullet designs, even for lightweight, high-velocity loads. Many don't expand, or they expand very little.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
Alright...so I CAN use lead in standard pressure rounds.
Heck, if they ain't gonna expand anyway, why waste the recoil on +P ???!!!???

I might as well shoot standard pressure rounds and enjoy the light recoil, low muzzle flash, and quick follow up.

I think I am leaning toward a standard pressure lead bullet, in the heavy variety. Maybe the 158gr Nyclad wadcutter mentioned above.

The thing is, I have no idea what this is going to do inside a person. I at least like to know what to expect from a bullet.

Why is the semi-wadcutter so good?
Does it mush up?
Does it tumble?
How would the wadcutter compare in ballistic/wounding performance to the semi-wadcutter?

Since I am definitly in Shawn's range here (heavy penetrator round), I would love to hear his opinion on this.

I would be willing to go with any brand semi-wadcutter or wadcutter...whatever is best.
So far it sounds like the Nyclad wadcutter would give me dependable performance. At least I would pretty much know what the bullet is going to do rather than guessing whether the hollowpoint will open or not (which it probably won't from what is said here).
Just tell me if I should go semi-wadcutter or wadcutter and why.

Thanks, I am learning a lot!
 
I've got $.02, so here goes. Get an out of production (again) S&W 940. It's their 5 shot, moon clipped 9mm. You give up very little velocity with the 2" barrel over a 4" that most semi-autos have. 115 gr. Silvertips are running almost 1100 fps.
Recoil can be "smart", but it sure is a lot more controlable than .357 mag snubbies.
Cat
 
I have used the Federal Hydra-Shok 147gr.
+p+ for years. Its performance comes close
to .45 and .357 performance. ( as stated
by the FB and I )
 
With our S&W 442 I keep the pistol loaded with Glaser blue safety slugs and then use the 158-grain LSWCHP +P as reloads. Even though the pistol is not rated for +P and the recoil is strong the pistol really likes the 158gr ammo and shoots to point of aim at 25 feet.
 
Red, you are not going to get adequate penetration AND expansion at the same time out of a two inch .38spl. Find a 125gr. JHP that has the flatest nose you can find and carry it in your Ti revolver. A flat nosed JHP won't deform much but it is almost as good as a SWC. Don't worry, you don't want 110 & 125 gr. bullets to expand. They don't possess enough energy after expansion to give reliable penetration. I have tested many of the light JHPs mentioned in this thread because I too carry a .38 snub on a daily basis. Many of them expand impressively, and the manufacturers sell alot of them because of it; but they don't penetrate deeply enough for anything except a frontal shot. You can't count on always having a frontal shot.

What is truly important is having a reliable gun shooting a bullet that penetrates deeply enough, and then putting those bullts in the right place. Expansion with enough penetration is a wonderful goal, however it is not realistic in a snub. If you want it, get a .357 or a 4 in. .38 with 158 gr. Lead SWC-HPs.
 
Ooh, the 9mm snubbie. I like that idea. Anyone know where I can get one? Are they "lightweight"?
Are they easier or harder to reload than a .38 (because I have never seen how a moonclip revolver is reloaded)

I am now totally confused about what ammo to carry, but alas, I don't think anyone ever really has the ONE answer. I will play around with rounds and find out which one performs the best. It sounds like above statements were correct: just get the one that shoots the best.
I agree that I don't care about expansion in a .38 snubbie. Like I said, the most common failure, at least that I hear of, in the .38 (and the like) is not enough penetration so it does not reach a vital. I will take pentration over expansion when given a choice, and in these lower powered bullets I think the choice has to be made, because you won't get both.
I am still leaning in the direction that I might as well forget expansion because I probably won't get it anyway, and if I get it, I might not WANT it for lack of penetration. I might as well stick to the heavier bullets.
Heck, Marshall/Sanow like light, fast bullets and they rate the 158gr +P JHP at the top of their chart out of a snubbie. I think M/S data is one step above a fairy tale, but if I am on the borderline in a decision, it is nicely taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks for being patient with me everyone, I am learning a lot, but I realize I am waffling a lot too.

I would still like to know what a lead wadcutter would do inside a person. The flat point might carve out a pretty decent crush cavity, and hopefully it might mush up a bit or tumble.
 
Wadcutters: Marshall and Sanow have them rated low, %50 or less. I believe that is a projection from gelatin results, as there were not any or very few street shootings. They think it is over penetrative. I have a snubby that I load with wadcutters as everything else shoots way to the right of point of aim. If the velocity of the wadcutter was boosted to 800 fps in a factory load I think it would be a good carry load. Most hunters are impressed with wadcutter performance in the field.

I am surprised that since you value penetration you would buy a gun that would obviate the use of 158 gr loads. FWIW I carry two Mag Safes followed by three 158+P SWC HPs. The 158 gr load will actually clock 800 fps from most 2" barrels and being virtually pure lead is likely to at least deform the nose a bit. Plus it is likely to penetrate deeply enough.

The 125 gr loads have never appealed to me since the velocity never appears much faster than the 158 gr lead will do, with usually less than 100 fps difference. I would much rather have the penetration and impact affect the extra 33 grains of lead afford.
 
You don't get expansion out of any snub, so go for penetration. That means mass x velocity...momentum: a heavy bullet going as fast as possible. Of course no one has mentioned reloads, because of the mostly unfounded fear that use of them will prejudice a claim of legitimate self defense. I think that if you have to use your gun, that the load should be the most effective one you can find; any unlikely legal issues are secondary. I use the heavy hard-cast .358 from Bull-X in my old .38 spcl Model 60, driven as fast as I can drive it and have the gun stay together. I have heard and read of too many failures of light bullets in the .38 special to put any faith in them. slabsides

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For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
 
I've got three thoughts on this.
1)Glasers and MagSafes. Pros: They dump a ton of energy and have low recoil and ricochet risk. Cons: Expensive! Ultra-lite bullets shoot to different point of aim than what the fixed sights are set up for. Very low penetration.
2)110gr-125gr JHPs. +P or +P+. Pros: Low recoil, decent price, possible expansion. Cons: Hellacious muzzle flash, hard on forcing cone, slight change in POI.
3)158gr+P SWCHP. Pros:Sights usually dead on at defense ranges, cheap to buy and practice with, lead is easy on the forcing cone. Even if you get zero expansion, you still have 158gr.s of BG busting power. Good penetration. Cons: Too much penetration? Usually no expansion. Increased recoil.

Personally, I alternate between choices #2 and #3. I've never shot the hi-tech" frangible stuff. My carry piece is a S&W M640-1. 357 magnum. So, I know that the +P+ ammo is okay. The frame is (of course) steel, and helps with recoil. I don't worry about muzzle flash, because for defense I have the gun at sternum level and focus on the chest area of the cardboard targets. I have an idea where the front sight is, but I don't look at it. :) -Kframe

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[This message has been edited by Kframe (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
I carry CCI/Speer CCI 148 grain Blazer WC TMJ Cleanfire in my S&W M60. The bullet is a full wadcutter that's totally copper jacketed. It penetrates about 20 inches. The reason I chose this load is because:

1) The sharp shoulder of the cylindrical wadcutter shape is the most efficient bullet shape for crushing tissue.

2) The copper jacket is less likely to deform on impact, and the bullet will be more likely to retain its sharp shoulder edge.

3) I don't have to worry about expansion. JHP bullets generally don't expand when fired from a 2" snubby, and they penetrate deeply, as deeply as my TMJ wadcutter. However, the TMJ wadcutter is going to crush tissue more efficiently as it penetrates, producing a larger diameter permanent cavity.

4) Recoil is minimal. The bullet's velocity is approximately 780 fps when fired from a snub.

If I could obtain this bullet as a reloading component, I'd download its velocity until it achieved optimal penetration (12-16 inches) and leave it at that. Maybe when I have the time, I'll pull a few bullets and experiment.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
You know, as long as we're talking wadcutters, I'll throw in some words about a load I used awhile back in the woods. I would seat a HBWC (hollow-based wadcutter) BACKWARDS in the case, and push it to 800fps or so. I got this idea out of one of the gun glossies. The idea is that the hollow "base" becomes a huge hollowpoint, and that coupled with the soft lead ensured some expansion. Also, this backwards flying slug is aerodynamically poor, so out of barrels shorter than three inches the slug would begin to tumble bast ten yards or so. Therefore, even if you don't get any expansion you have a keyholing projectile that will tear a whole at least as wide as the bullet is long. In wet-newsprint tests I got these things to open up to .650" from a S&W M36, 1 7/8" barrel. Furthermore, (and it's open to argument how much tactical difference this makes) those "hollow-points" look absolutely nasty from the front view of the cylinder. FWIW, -Kframe

____________________________________________

Update: The article was in Am. Handgunner, May/June 1996, page 72. "Is this the Best Kit Gun" re: S&W M60-4 3" barrel -K

[This message has been edited by Kframe (edited October 14, 1999).]
 
Jeez; this thread should be retitled, 'Under the Chestnut Tree!' There are so many hoary chestnuts here: light vs. heavy, lead vs. jacketed, momentum vs. energy, frangible bullets, even the backwards loaded hollow base LFWC!!

I would be amazed if anyone were able to derive any useful information out of all the contradictory posts.

Well, here goes my attempt at giving you something to take home. Shoot a good jacketed hollow point, somewhere around 125 to 150 grains. Remember that the basic construction (large, blunt meplat, lots of lead exposed) of a revolver bullet favors expansion, but even so, you shouldn't count on it. Want to shoot a 158 gr. LSWCHP? I don't have a problem with that; I consider it an acceptable alternative. I cast many a Lyman #358156 U-HP over the years (I started reloading more than 40 years ago). This is a gas checked 150 gr SWC hollow point. It was the basis for the infamous .38 spl. load that appeared in early Lyman manuals (it was developed by Elmer Keith); I won't mention the specifics of the load, as it developed VERY HIGH OVERPRESSURE. That the guns held together was a tribute to S&W's large frame handguns' strength.

Frangible bullets are an abomination. Only fools use them. You don't want to shoot someone with shot unless you are using a shotgun. Bullets that break up into pieces aren't doing their job either. A bullet is supposed to put a large hole through whatever it hits. Your target bleeds to death; that is the mechanism of bullet wound mortality in the vast majority of cases.


Light bullets? Heavy bullets? Should you use those with more momentum (mass x velocity) or those with more energy (mass x velocity squared / 2)?

Answer: use the largest bullet you can shoot accurately. You want to punch the largest hole through vital organs that you can.

Worried about penetrating too far? Don't be. Any handgun cartridge is a marginal performer on a human being. Few will inflict through-and-through wounds through the torso of a human. In 20 years in the Emergency Dept., I never saw this, and I saw a lot of GSW's. Besides, there are good reasons why overpenetration is not an issue. First, you should be concerned with saving your life, not accidentally hitting innocent bystanders, an extremely remote possibility. Secondly, if you have an exit wound on your adversary, it is another place to bleed from, so it is to your advantage.

Backward loaded hollow base wadcutters? I thought I had heard the last of THAT about 25 or so years ago. If driven to sufficient velocity (not an easy thing to do with the markedly decreased space for the powder charge), the bullet expands in the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, mangling the 'front' of the bullet, yielding horrible accuracy. Plus they don't expand worth spit. Hmmm...in the '96 Am. Handgunner? I get that mag. Will have to look it up, but trust me, this has been tried before, and doesn't work. That is NINETEEN ninety six, right? ;)

There are no golden bullets, let alone silver bullets. Shooting a marginal handgun like a .38 spl. snubbie almost guarantees that you will find yourself in this situation after shooting the badguy five times in the chest: having to use your knife on him when you grapple with him, and hoping like heck that he weakens from blood loss before YOU get weak.

Want to try a larger caliber snubbie? GOOD!! That is the spirit; remember, use the LARGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

Is what rings your chimes a .40 caliber LSWCHP bullet weighing 190 grains at 1100 fps? GOOD!! If that is the largest caliber you can shoot accurately. Go ahead and borrow your granddad's old .38-40, then, as that caliber will yield those ballistics. Lyman #40168 HP. The cartridge has been around for over 100 years. So, what sounds new and hot today may actually be something that has been around for a long time, and while effective, has not revolutionized combat handgunning.

As always, questions, comments and criticisms are welcomed.

Walt Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine, NRA Life since 1972
 
Walt, what would be the point of this or any other forum if we all agreed? So what if there are as many opinions as participants? I'm only relating what works for me. Adding another option. It is up to everyone to try it all and settle on their PERSONAL choice.

I have tried the backwards-seated HBWC and I assure you, sir, that it does indeed work, and the accuracy is as good (out to ten yards from a snubbie, out to twenty from a 4" barrel) as most other bullet styles. Unless you have a B/C gap measuring in the hundredth's, rather than thousandths, the front of the bullet does not get mangled. And yes, this setup DOES expand worth a spit. I've tried it, I've seen it. Or am I just hallucinating? Please don't contradict another's personal experience. If you've tried it (have you?) and you had problems with the load, than fine. Try something else. So far this is a great place to share ideas, but if I see more of this Shooters.com attitude, I'm gone. But seriously, no hard feelings. Just let me have my opinion. -Kframe
 
A snubnose .38 is probably the perfect place for frangible ammunition. It is misleading to refer to this as a shot load. Both Glaser Safety Slugs and Magsafes punch into the body wall as one unit THEN fragment. This is essentially how a .223 FMJ load works [they penetrate, quickly yaw, tumble, and blow the rear core out as fragments], though a .223 round has much more energy.

We are dealing with a limited amount of power in a 2" .38. The question is how to make the best use of thepower available. It is simplistic to just say use a bigger gun. In the real world most of us can't walk around with a full size 1911 or find it so inconvenient to do so that we go to something like the 2" .38.

As already mentioned, hollowpoints tend to plug up and at low velocities may not expand even if not plugged. As I look at a Magsafe .38 round it looks very much like a wadcutter. Inside, plainly visible from the front, are large shot in an epoxy matrix. This bullet practically HAS to go to pieces when it hits. There is a massive energy dump of what energy is available. Yes they are expensive, but with revolvers you really don't have to function test, so you won't be using a lot of them. Point of impact from these 68gr loads was only 2" low at 7-10 yds from my M642. I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a cylinder full of these because I might need more penetration, but for a first shot or two, the Magsafe, Glaser and Triton Quick-Shok are making the most of technology, and bullets really have gotten better.

If anyone has any doubts about bullets all being the same within a caliber, look at the Strassburg Goat Tests. Goats were shot through the chest and timed to see how many seconds until they fell. Even a big bullet like .45 hardball that doesn't expand is a very slow immobilizer. The best way to assure you will end up grappling with your opponent after you have emptied your gun into him is to use something like a round nose nonexpanding bullet.
 
Kframe; sorry I gored your favorite oxen, but the point I was trying to make is that the backward loaded LFWCHB bullet is:

Not a new idea. Tried many times by many people, and few have decided that it is useful.

A difficult round to load safely. The markedly decreased powder space, plus the large bearing surface tend to make overpressure a problem. Distortion of the forward loaded base of the bullet has been described many times, when full power loads are used.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would be interested in your data. What load are you using, how did you measure expansion, what media did you use? Things like that.

AC: congratulations on bringing into this thread possibly the last contentious item it was missing. Here is what the FTI site has to say about these 'tests.'

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dr. Martin Fackler, IWBA president, reviews the authorless "Strasbourg Tests," a purported study of the reaction of several hundred live unanesthetized "human-sized" goats that were allegedly shot to test the "one-shot stopping power" of various handgun cartridges. Fackler explains the many incongruities, inconsistencies and absurdities which lead him (and most other wound ballistics experts) to conclude that the "Strasbourg Tests" are a hoax.

Fackler concludes: "The only people who believe the 'Strasbourg Tests' are real are the usual crowd of crackpot 'magic' bullet believers and the pathetically incompetent editors of consumer gun magazines like Guns & Ammo."[/quote]

OK, AC, Rich Lucibella and I have argued politely about our various viewpoints on wound ballistics for a long time. I am NOT a Facklerite. So, here is our chance to stick it to Rich and Marvin. Just post the source of the Strasbourg tests. Give me a URL where I can go to the source and read about them. Please. This shouldn't be hard; the medical literature is meant to be referred to, and the authors are publically posted for a good reason; if questions arise about their publications, they can be queried. So, let's pin down these elusive Strasbourg tests so I can give Rich a reaming he will remember.

Walt
 
Walt Welch:

after reading this, and many other posts and research papers, from the IWBA and others, I'm on your side.Add to that your longterm experience with GSW's on a practical, observational level. 20 years of anecdotal evidence is worth a lot.

All things being equal, pick the largest caliber you can control. The biggest permanent wound channel and maximum "leakage" at the fastest rate is the goal,along with vital organ damage. The Glasers, MagSafes etc don't accomplish that. Many possibly self-sealing small holes don't work, unless you have the time to safely wait around for the BG to die of peritonitus.

I don't claim any expertise on other choices of load or bullet for the snubbies... that's why I'm here. imho

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited October 15, 1999).]
 
Speer Gold Dot HP. +P load.125 Gr.ME LIKE!
Good balance between penetration and expansion.Decent retail price as well.
MY 2 Cents worth!
 
Walt-
You ignorant misguided #@%& :)

I'm with you on this one. I want to believe Strasbourg. I want to believe in Santi Claus. I have just never seen even passing documenbtation of either.

All-
Dr Welch is neither ignorant, nor misquided....even when we disagree. Learn from him.
Rich
 
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