What is the best defensive round type for the .38 snubbie?

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Red Bull

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I don't know diddly about .38 snubbies, but I want to know what the best defensive round is.
Since the .38 Special is so underpowered, it seems to me that I should forget the idea of energy transfer and go for penetration. This is just a guess on my part. But the thing is: I have heard of a .38 Special failing to stop many times due to insufficient penetration. So it seems that penetration should come first.
I am not convinced on this, but it is my hypothesis.
I cannot shoot lead, so the 158gr lead SWC seems to be out of the question.
I would like suggestions on some good +p defensive ammo that would penetrate deep and yet give some expansion of course.
I would equally appreciate suggestions from the light and fast crowd on what the best stoppers are in that catagory.

On one hand, snubbies are usually used up close and personal, so I figure I am going to probably be a few feet from my attacker, plant the gun in his ribs or his face and pull the trigger (as a last ditch defensive need), or even if we are not at contact distance, we will be close enough that there will be no obstructions. So, in that light, maybe a light and fast energy-transfer bullet like a Triton Quick Shot might work best. Point blank in the rib cage, a Triton Quick shot could do massive damage.


What rounds do all of you out there vote for and why?

I am really new to the .38, so all advice is appreciated.
 
I've heard good things about Federal's Nyclad "Chief Special" load, but for some unknown reason my local shops don't carry it. I use the 125gr Hydra-shok load as it has proven accurate out of my gun.
 
Hello, Red Bull. Since you mention that you cannot use lead, I assume that you are using or are considering one of the titanium revolvers? In any event, out of the snubs, the 158 gr lead +P SWCHP still rates at the top according to Marshall & Sanow. I carry the std pressure Federal 125 gr Nyclad HP in my airweight S&W M042 as it's not rated for use with +P and have been happy with it; the only thing I've killed with it was an armadillo, but it did better than expected.
Federal offers the Nyclad 125 HP in a Plus P loading as well and that's likely what I'd use as the nylon "jacket" seems more likely to rupture and allow expansion than gilding metal at .38 snub velocities. There is a lot of difference between the .38's effectiveness out of 4" bbls vs 2" bbls. Placement is everything and the gun is difficult to shoot accurately compared to others. I think of it as a five shot deringer. The Nyclads are easy to control, hit point of aim in my pistol and are accurate. best.
 
Wadcutters. If your revolver is Stainless Steele. If it's blued then REM. Golden Sabres or FED. Hydra-Shock or WIN. SXTs.


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FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!
 
If your .38 is +P rated, I like the Golden Sabers. (

I've been shooting them in a .357 snubbie. The .38spl +P is much better in a short-barreled gun than the .357 round, has comparable performance, and much less flash at night (which could destroy your night vision at a critical time.)



[This message has been edited by Walt Sherrill (edited October 11, 1999).]
 
Go with the Federal Nyclad 125gr standard pressure round; penetration is adequate and shot-to-shot recovery is very good. I use this round in my S&W 342. I don't find that using a +P round in a snubby is very efficient; your shot-to-shot recovery time is slower because of greater recoil and the bullet itself doesn't receive much benefit from the slightly higher velocity.

[This message has been edited by CAK (edited October 11, 1999).]
 
Use whatever round you can hit something with. I don't say this to be a smarta**, i say it because so many people get caught up in Magic bullet theories and pay no attention to hitting the target. If a lower powered round makes it easier to hit the target due to recoil induced flinching, then use less power or practice a lot more. If you gotta have all the power, why not get a .357 snubie?

Anybody who says a .38 Special is underpowered is an idiot. Ask them if they'd care to be hit with one.

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TJS
 
I am shooting the Ti-Airweight from S&W, so lead is out or I would just use the 158gr LSWC.
I am unfamiliar with what a Nyclad is. Is it a lead bullet jacketed in Nylon? Would the Nylon coating keep the bullet from working loose in my lightwieght gun, but still give me lead-type performance (like a Silvertip or wadcutter)?

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I appreciate all of them and would love to hear more.

Proload has always been popular with me. Maybe I should get some of his 125 gr +p's and see how they perform. I will test +p against standard pressure and see which performs best for me. I tend to be relatively recoil-insensitive, so I think the +p's would be fine.

If S&W made a lightweight .357 like this, I would consider carrying it. But, I am intrigued by the statement that "the .357 does not perform that much better out of the short barrel anyway" (Most of that extra power goes into flash out the end of the short barrel from what I hear). Does anyone have any chrono numbers on these two rounds compared out of a snubby barrel? Does the .44 Special perform any better? I have heard statements like this many times before. So, maybe I should just be happy with my .38 and figure it has enough punch. I was thinking about getting a .357 snubbie, but now I am reconsidering.

What do you guys think of the Triton Quick Shocks?

What about putting like one or two Triton Quick Shoks as the first shot or two, then followed by heavier penetrators. That way, if I have to pull the gun quickly with someone in my face, I can use the "explosive" Quick Shock, but if I need some more penetration because that does not work, the next rounds are, say, 125gr Proloads. Is that a dumb idea?

Or, I could have a speedloader with a different style of ammo...? Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

thanks!

Ps- The 9mm is considered pretty minimal, and since the .38 Special is like a 9mm, minus almost 300 fps, the .38 Special does seem a bit underpowered to me. But, I am carrying one, so obviously I think it is adequate.

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited October 11, 1999).]
 
I've shot the NYCLAD a little, and it always goes off, I really can't judge performance since I've only punched paper. You're right, it's a lead bullet with a nylon jacket. I can't imagine that the bullet would come loose under recoil, but I can't back it up. BTW, how's the reciol in that airlight? I had a 442 which is the previous airweight and that thing kicked like heck.

You might look at the Glasers or Mag-Safes, as the superlight bullets would discount the recoil energy. As to Quick Shocks, I think I'd wait a while and check their track record as they are pretty new. I've fired the .22's but nothing else.

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TJS

[This message has been edited by Tim Schlosser (edited October 11, 1999).]
 
Hello. I've used Triton QuikShoks in the 3" Taurus .44 Spec and was impressed with both accuracy, velocity, and effect in informal "soft target" testing. The bullet performed as advertised and velocity averaged 1088 ft/sec, but I've not tried these in .38 Spec.
I rather like the std pressure Nyclads I mentioned in the previous post as it is easy to control, hits poa for me, and has been accurate. Best.
 
Eric the AmmoMan - www.ammoman.com - has .38 Nyclads, if you're having any trouble getting them locally. I was surprised to find 148gr Nyclad wadcutter (not semi-wadcutter) there, since it doesn't seem to be listed at Federal's site.
 
Hmmm, a Nyclad wadcutter might do the trick. I am not quite sure what a wadcutter looks like exactly though. I have seen .45 semi-wadcutters before, so I guess a wadcutter is more cylindrically-square at the end? Is it just flat on the end?
How would that perform in a person? Like...would it tumble? Or, would it just mush up into some semblace of a mushroom (like a hollowpoint?)?

thanks, I am learning a lot here from everyone.
 
A full wadcutter is flat on the end. In fact, most of them look like there's no bullet in the case, when you look at it from the side. The 148gr. WC sticks out a millimeter or two.
 
Red,

If you are not using a titanium revolver, then use the Federal Nyclad version of the tried and true 158-grain LSWCHP +P or FBI load as it is known collectively It is the best defensive load for the .38 Special revolver...snubby or service length.

Although it may not expand much from a snub barrel, the soft lead will almost always upset and disrupt in human tissue to over 0.50 caliber and penetrate about 12 to 14 inches. This penetration makes it a much better killer than the .380 ACP for things like headshots or shots taken at an adversary standing with their side to you.

If you are using a titanium revolver, try the 129-grain Hydra-Shok. Although the killing power is not equal to the FBI load, the Hydra-Shok design is well known for its low velocity expansion prowess. I would choose this load.

The 125-grain "Chief's Special" may seem like a good idea, but I fear it would also fall within the ban on lead hollowpoints as all Nyclad bullets are little more than lead bullets covered with a plastic cover.

Good luck.

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- Anthony (the crazy Italian with a .41 Magnum)

"Civilized people are taught by logic, barbarians by necessity, communities by tradition, and the lesson is inculcated even in wild beasts by nature itself. They learn that they have to defend their own bodies and persons and lives from violence of any and every kind by all the means within their power."

- Marcus Tullius Cicero
 
One other poster has nailed the situation: be certain what you're shooting shoots well for you in your gun. the "Chief's Special" Nyclads shoot very low out of my gun (638 Smith). Golden Sabers shoot to POA and are very accurate for me. I'm satisfied.
 
Regarding the Nyclad round being used in a titanium frame-
As long as you don't use the +P Nyclad, you won't experience any problems with function or the bullets working their way out. I have not experienced any problems with this combination in my backup gun.

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El Cid '89
 
Interesting that you ask this. The Gun Tests I received in the mail yesterday tested .38 spl loads (in multiple barrel lengths, though), and concluded their two favorites for energy, penetration, and low chamber pressure were:

1. Corbon 125 gr
2. Rem SJHP 125 gr (not Golden Saber)
 
I second everything Stephen Camp wrote. Nyclad standard pressure all the way. For reference, independant tests by the well respected Firearms Tactical Institute showed that of all the major brands of metal jacketed hollow points they tested, NONE expanded at all when pushed out of a .38 snubbie. 158 gr LSWC or Federal Nyclad in standard or +P for both, any good JHP in +P for 4" Bbl's only to get the required velocity for expansion, don't like the Triton Quick Shock but think the Hi-Vel is great in 9mm, the QS splits into 3 pieces on impact or so I believe and tends to under penetrate, although once again that's very doubtful out of a snubbie, that's my $0.02 anyways.

Regards,

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Mike H
 
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