Lambdebois
New member
Considering bullet weights, velocity, diameter, Penetration in ballistics gell.. How does the non (+P) and (+P) special round stack up compared to other caliber rounds?
What is the 38 spl comparable too?
- Thread starter Lambdebois
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Lambdebois
New member
Oops didn't mean to post this in the semi-auto forum.... If a mod wants to move it somewhere more appropriate please do.
I'd recommend you go to just about any major manufacturers website. Federal, Cor-Bon, Remington etc...
Every manufactures website I've visited lists ballistics, so you can compare. The two important numbers that I always look at are "muzzle velocity" and "muzzle energy". Look at rounds that you'd be likely to use, like HydraShok, Cor-Bon +P JHP, Speer Gold -Dot etc...
Every manufactures website I've visited lists ballistics, so you can compare. The two important numbers that I always look at are "muzzle velocity" and "muzzle energy". Look at rounds that you'd be likely to use, like HydraShok, Cor-Bon +P JHP, Speer Gold -Dot etc...
Lambdebois
New member
Seems to me looking a Hornady's website it is comparable to the 9mm looking at "muzzle velocity" and "muzzle energy" and not the diameter of the bullet...
Am I wrong?
Thanks for the advice NoleMan
Am I wrong?
Thanks for the advice NoleMan
The .38 Special is quite comparable to the 9mm in it's hottest loadings.
The 9mm tends to be a bit faster and a bit lighter, in a more compact package.
The diameter of the bullet is roughly the same, for the sake of comparison (without a caliper or micrometer) they should be considered the same diameter.
In it's heaviest typical loading, the 9mm goes up to 147 gr, but most common loadings stick between 115 and 125gr. The typical bullet weight of the .38 Special is 158 gr.
The 9mm runs at roughly twice the internal pressure.
In velocity and penetration, the 9mm is out front by a noticeable difference. And muzzle energy is slanted toward velocity, so the scale tips toward the 9mm as well. 9mm also has the advantage of the sealed bore of a pistol, where the .38 Special has to deal with the gap between the cylinder face and the forcing cone, where some pressure escapes.
But if the question is, "What is the .38 Spl comparable to?" then 9mm is the most obvious answer. And typically, it falls a bit behind.
The 9mm tends to be a bit faster and a bit lighter, in a more compact package.
The diameter of the bullet is roughly the same, for the sake of comparison (without a caliper or micrometer) they should be considered the same diameter.
In it's heaviest typical loading, the 9mm goes up to 147 gr, but most common loadings stick between 115 and 125gr. The typical bullet weight of the .38 Special is 158 gr.
The 9mm runs at roughly twice the internal pressure.
In velocity and penetration, the 9mm is out front by a noticeable difference. And muzzle energy is slanted toward velocity, so the scale tips toward the 9mm as well. 9mm also has the advantage of the sealed bore of a pistol, where the .38 Special has to deal with the gap between the cylinder face and the forcing cone, where some pressure escapes.
But if the question is, "What is the .38 Spl comparable to?" then 9mm is the most obvious answer. And typically, it falls a bit behind.
Kreyzhorse
New member
Well said.
I think of the 38 Special as a catridge you compare TO. The 9MMP is the closest round both in terms of year of introduction (1908 vs 1899) and overall power, bearing in mind that the "standard" 9MM load was a 124 gr FMJ
vs the 158gr RNL for the 38 Special. Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful round the average man could develop any real skill with, the same is true of the 9MM.
vs the 158gr RNL for the 38 Special. Bill Jordan said the 38 Special was the most powerful round the average man could develop any real skill with, the same is true of the 9MM.
38 spcl
Velocity and kinetic energy don't necessarily equate to effectiveness on target. The reommendation to check the Box O' Truth website is well-taken. You should also check brassfetcher.com which site has voluminous data on penetration in ballistics gelatin and gelatin/clothing combinations. Their findings strongly suggest the 38 Spcl is not inferior to the 9mm. The extensive NYPD SOP #9 database of police-perp shootings did not show the caliber of firearm was a significant factor in stopping a gunfight; the only statistically significant variable was shot placement.
With respect to comparisons to the .30 M1 carbine, neither the 38 spcl or the 9 mm are close, as the .30 carbine round has a 110 gr bullet at 1900-1950 fps. The carbine was developed as a replacement for a handgun for support troops and officers. It became very popular with airborne troops for its lightness, portability and short overall length. It was not intended to be a primary combat weapon, as was the M1 Garand. However, it was more powerful than the German MP-40 (9mm) and the Russian PPSh-41 (7.62X25 mm) which were successfully used as front-line weapons. Again, check out the Box O' Truth for carbine penetration tests: it is a very potent round. With soft point ammo it was used very successfully by the NYPD stakeout squad.
Velocity and kinetic energy don't necessarily equate to effectiveness on target. The reommendation to check the Box O' Truth website is well-taken. You should also check brassfetcher.com which site has voluminous data on penetration in ballistics gelatin and gelatin/clothing combinations. Their findings strongly suggest the 38 Spcl is not inferior to the 9mm. The extensive NYPD SOP #9 database of police-perp shootings did not show the caliber of firearm was a significant factor in stopping a gunfight; the only statistically significant variable was shot placement.
With respect to comparisons to the .30 M1 carbine, neither the 38 spcl or the 9 mm are close, as the .30 carbine round has a 110 gr bullet at 1900-1950 fps. The carbine was developed as a replacement for a handgun for support troops and officers. It became very popular with airborne troops for its lightness, portability and short overall length. It was not intended to be a primary combat weapon, as was the M1 Garand. However, it was more powerful than the German MP-40 (9mm) and the Russian PPSh-41 (7.62X25 mm) which were successfully used as front-line weapons. Again, check out the Box O' Truth for carbine penetration tests: it is a very potent round. With soft point ammo it was used very successfully by the NYPD stakeout squad.
chris in va
New member
I'm guessing the 30 carbine round would roughly equal a very hot 357 out of a long-ish revolver barrel. With room to spare.
When compared to 9mm, .357 mag., .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP, it usually comes up short. HOWEVER, no one wants to be shot with anything, and the .38 spcl. has been effectively killing people for many, many years.
Properly applied in a +p and/or "short barrel" loading for snubbies, and with the right bullet weight for the loading and gun, it comes close to/or equals the 9mm.
The .38 spcl. revolver is still an effective SD weapon.
I sometimes carry a 5 round, 2" Taurus 85UL with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel or Hornady Critical Defense rounds, and I don't feel under-gunned with it at all.
Hope that helps.
A bit behind in terms of raw energy, yeah. But in terms of effectiveness? The best 38+P loads can keep up even when shot out of a snubby (2" barrel).
The advantage the 38 has is that it's hollowpoint cavity doesn't need to compromise for feed ramp compatibility. In other words, you can run a big gaping hollowpoint that would cause any 9mm gun to jam up solid.
That lets the 38 fight well outside of what would otherwise be it's "weight class" in raw energy.
You cannot get the 9MM with a 158 grain lead hollowpoint bullet. So the revolver has the advantage of mass versus higher velocity. Little bullet fast or bigger bullet slower? Takes your pick. Volume versus maybe, reliability. A really really good .38 load from a good revolver is nothing to disregard.
RamSlammer
New member
I've loaded some soft 148 grain hollow base GC wadcutters (10 bhn) backward to 990 fps from a 2" snub. Not a scientific test, but gets through 3 and a half water filled milk jugs and expands to .59". The only 9mm rounds that I've ever had that came close to that were the 127 gr. +P+ Rangers.
armsmaster270
New member
Also you can get 110+P+ 38spl's that do quite well.
If you want a closer comparison Winchester Ranger T series ammo
38Spl+P 130gr MV 925 energy 247ft.lbs. 4"bbl
9mm 147gr MV 990 energy 320ft.lbs. 4"bbl
If you want a closer comparison Winchester Ranger T series ammo
38Spl+P 130gr MV 925 energy 247ft.lbs. 4"bbl
9mm 147gr MV 990 energy 320ft.lbs. 4"bbl
If he said that, I'd have to disagree.
I've been working on my shot-to-shot speed with my 357. Shooting ammo of about 550ft/lbs energy (CCI Blazer 158gr JHPs) I'm able to do one shot per second with decent control. That's with a single action Ruger NewVaq with ergonomics tuned to my hands (altered hammer and grip panels), gun weight up around 39oz.
Jordan favored lighter 357s than that, and was a big influence on the development of the K-frame 357. So in that platform, I guess he had more of a point but...still, a lot of people cope with stout ammo in a K-frame (about, what, 28oz?).
Once the gun weight drops to about 20-21oz (steel J-frame) or less, yeah, the 357 starts to turn into a real rodeo ride.
The other thing to remember about Jordan is that a lot of his writing pre-dates the "modern technique" developed by Jack Weaver, Jeff Cooper and those crazy guys in SoCal who learned how to really use both hands properly (not to mention sights). So this comment may trace to the days he was advocating a sort of controlled one or two handed shooting at belly button level.
Compare the pic of Jordan with that of Cooper here:
http://www.gunlaws.com/persafe.htm
