What is going on with this gun?

[Muddrick]

Hi all,

I've been having problems with my gun and I'm hoping people on this forum can give me insight as to the problem. I purchased a IWI Jericho 941 a few months ago. I really like the gun however I have had issues with FTE (Stovepiping).

I purchased the gun through Davidson's Gallery of Guns and I ended up with 7 or 8 FTE over roughly 800 rounds. Basically it was happening once every 100 rounds which to me is unacceptable. Fortunately, Gallery of Guns and their warranty is awesome and they sent me out a replacement. I get the replacement gun and on the third round I have a FTE. I ended up shooting another 100 rounds without a problem. At this point I was frustrated since I was on my second gun and had the same problem within three shots. I sent the gun to IWI and they put 96 rounds through the gun with multiple brands of ammo without a problem(according to IWI). On my next trip to the range I get a FTE on the 149th round. I am now sending it back to Davidsons and they are sending me out a second replacement. Did I say that Davidsons is awesome!

I don't believe I am limp wristing the gun as I also have a browning hi power, sig p226 tacops, cz 75 compact and I have not had one FTE with any of those guns. Also two other people shot my Jericho and had a FTE. The FTE's have come with Speer lawman, Blazer Brass and Remington 9mm ammo.

I'm thinking of changing out the magazines when I get the new replacement although not sure if that will make any difference. I have attached two pictures and any insight would be welcome!

Thanks

 

[Mike38]

RE: The second gun.... I don't consider a failure on the third round of a new pistol a problem at all. Contrary to what some people think, semi auto guns do need to go through a break in period. There are machine marks and burrs that need to be worn off, in my opinion. I give any new gun 300 to 400 rounds minimum before I even consider 100% reliability.

 

[Muddrick]

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough but in total I ended up putting 310 rounds through the second gun and ended up with 3 FTE. I understand your point and would have given it more time if this was the first gun. I went through 800 rounds with the first gun before I sent it back. Now I am on the second gun and 3 FTE's after 310 rounds. Like I mentioned before, I have not had one issue with my other guns.

 

[hartcreek]

Your photos dont show much. If you want help we will need real photos of the insides of the current gun.

 

[RickCoop]

I have the 9915R all steel version of the same gun and was having the same problem with mine when I first got it. I have found that a good cleaning behind the extractor as well as a drop oil on the extractor spring solves that problem. I have had thousands of rounds through the gun since and rarely have that happen. As a matter of fact, it only happens when I fail to clean out behind the extractor and lube that spring. Good luck, it is a very nice handgun.

 

[Limnophile]

Ejector spring too weak, or recoil spring too strong. RickCoop's diagnosis and treatment make sense, as a dirty ejector spring essentially weakens it. Any new gun needs to be properly cleaned and lubed. If you don't want to maintain it, get or make a stronger ejector spring.

With regard to reliability testing, if you believe in a break-in period, you can't start the reliability testing until the break-in period is completed.

 

[Muddrick]

hartcreek- Are you suggesting pictures of a basic fieldstrip or of a more complete breakdown of the gun?

Rickcoop- Thanks for the suggestion. I try to keep my guns clean and I do clean them out after each trip to the range however my knowledge of taking apart a gun is limited to a basic field strip. I'm not sure how to disassemble the gun so I can get to behind the extractor and spring but i'm sure I can find a video of how to do it somewhere on the internet.

Limnophile- Thanks as well for your suggestions. Just curious what do you think is a fair break-in period. I've heard 300-400 rounds, 500 rounds and 1000 rounds from different people.

 

[RickCoop]

Muddrick,
You don't need to disassemble the gun. I just put a small amount of gun oil on a Qtip and dab where you can see the spring behind the extractor on the slide. I can clearly see the area in the first picture you posted down near the bottom left corner of your pic. I just touch it in there and then wipe the excess off the slide. I works for me. Good luck.

 

[g.willikers]

The fact that Davidsons sent replacement guns says a lot for both themselves and the guns.
I've had a similar experience with a different brand, but the same manufacturer, of a cloned copy of the well proven CZ design.
(From the land of wine for lunch.)
Unfortunately they didn't have the excellent service of Davidsons.
It, too, turned out to be an extractor problem, with about the same amount of similar type jams.

But auto loaders can do that, for many reasons.
Which is why it's important and necessary to learn and practice clearing techniques.
Standing around befuddled and cursing won't get the pistol back in action.
Here's Clint Smith to show you how:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug

 

[briandg]

A pistol also depends on the new round to elevate and push out the fired brass. Check out magazine springs and functioning, and try buying a couple of spares. Of course, as said, look at all friction surfaces and lube well. If the slide is not fully cycling, it would cause that. Seriously, that looks like a limp wrist jam, but what it really probably is just some other cause for the slide to not fully retract, or some failure in the ejection/extraction system or lousy feed.

Btw, a stovepipes point upward. It's a completely different jam with it's own set of causes.

 

[rc]

I was having fits with a Kahr K9 until I polished the chamber then it started running like a top. That said, the ammo could be part of the problem if it's winchester white box which is on the soft side. You may need to try some different ammo to get 100% function.

 

[44 AMP]

A pistol also depends on the new round to elevate and push out the fired brass.

No, it doesn't.

You can prove this simply by chambering a round (fired case, dummy round or even a snap cap), drop the mag, and then pullback the slide. The chambered case ejects without the new round even in the gun!

 

[Muddrick]

Rickcoop- I see what you are talking about. I just got another replacement Jericho from Davidson's today. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but I will oil the extractor spring. That was something I was not doing previously.

G.willikers- Agreed that Davidson's is a great company and is the first place I always look to purchase a new gun. Their prices tend to be a little bit higher but their warranty is fantastic and you get piece of mind when you purchased from them.

RC- I've had the issue with three different types of ammo. Maybe a higher grain might make a difference.

Briang- I did purchase a few mags from a different manufacture although I haven't received them yet. I am curious to see if that will make any difference. Anything is possible but I am pretty confident the problem is not due to Limpwristing. Besides myself, two other people shot my gun and had the same problem. One of them is an employee at my LGS. The LGS wanted to see if they could replicate what was happening with the gun before they sent it back to Davidson's.

 

[hartcreek]

WE all know what a stove pipe looks like that is what your photos showed. What we need to see is inside you gun.......machine marks and such and the gunk. I have seen some new guns that needed hours of work just to clean up the fed ramps.

 

[Limnophile]

Just curious what do you think is a fair break-in period. I've heard 300-400 rounds, 500 rounds and 1000 rounds from different people.

I would base any break-in period on the manufacturer's specification. My carry sidearms are CZs, and they have no specified break-in period, so I began my reliability testing with the first round. I understand that Kahrs and 1911s have specified break-in periods. If your gun does not have one specified and you want to apply one, I'd use the Kahr or 1911 spec as a surrogate for your Jericho.

Check out magazine springs and functioning,

I agree with 44 AMP that this shouldn't be the problem, if your mags are dirty and sticky it might be indicative of the rest of the gun needing to be cleaned. All my CZ mags came generously coated with a sticky layer of protection. I disassembled each, remove the tacky protectorant with 91% isopropanol, then applied car wax inside and out and buffed to a shine. Unlike oil or grease, the buffed wax finish repels dirt while providing good lubrication. After this treatment mags that would not drop free all drop freely. One treatment lasts a long time.

Cleaning your mags won't solve your FTEs, but tacky mags could be a sign of a tacky ejector spring.

There are some who demand a semiauto work flawlessly out of the box, but I cannot fairly hold a manufacturer to that standard, as a gun properly treated for long-term storage needs to be cleaned and lubed before being fired. The process of field stripping, cleaning, and lubricating gives the new owner a chance to become well acquainted with his new tool.

Another reason I am somewhat forgiving is there is no such thing as a machine that is 100% reliable. Shoot a semiauto enough times and it will eventually fail somehow. What is important is that the failure rate be de minimus (it is up to you to subjectively specify what that rate is), and, as mentioned earlier, being prepared to quickly deal with failures when they arise.

With regard to reliability testing, the only reliability I'm interested in is that of my carry ammo in my carry system. Changing ammo should alter the reliability of the system.

What we need to see is inside you gun.......machine marks and such and the gunk. I have seen some new guns that needed hours of work just to clean up the fed ramps.

Polishing the feed ramp should have no effect on spent round extraction and ejection.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Like Limnophile says, that looks more like an ejection issue than extraction. Not likely to be the spring though.
You give either of 'em a really good bath before shooting? New firearms are shipped coated with a rust preventative(same idea as Cosmoline, but not thick grease) that needs to come off.
And try more brands of ammo.
Any machine marks and burrs should have been removed in the factory. Especially burrs. IWI's QC people wouldn't let anything out of the country with burrs or machine marks.

 

[briandg]

44amp, you are right, I lumped all guns under the same pile. I was wrong.

What I meant to say is that sometimes that last round will fail sometimes when the rest of the magazine worked perfectly. I had a ramline that did and my new Smith and Wesson does.

Stovepipes, courtesy of Wikipedia.

https//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_malfunction

 

[dgludwig]

QUOTE: "...There are some who demand a semiauto work flawlessly out of the box..."

Well, that's me. I "break" a gun in to verify its reliability; not to give a manufacturer an excuse for producing guns that don't work "right away" for their customers. Way too many firearm makers manufacture guns from the get-go that work "flawlessly out of the box" to argue that it can't be done. Obviously, any firearm can (and will) malfunction eventually and one should train to prepare for this ugly eventuality, but there's no need to enable gunmakers for deficient products that require a "break-in" period before they work.

Kudos to Davidson's Gallery of Guns for making right what the manufacturer made wrong.

 

[Oysterboy]

The gun's probably really picky with the ammo. Find the brand and weight of that ammo and stick to it. It may be +P or not too.

 

[Muddrick]

I picked a new replacement Jericho yesterday from my LGS. IWI really does cake on the anti rust grease on their new guns. I field-stripped it, cleaned it and lubed it. I'll be testing it out this weekend at the range...