what is enough gun

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm reminded of a story my fiance's grandfather told me about a month ago when I showed him my SA GI 1911. He was in the Corp for 20+ years and trained officers how to shoot 1911s. He carried one in Vietnam.

He didn't go into details (nor did I ask him to) about this particular scenario, but he ended up shooting a Vietcong officer that was high on "Beetle Nut". He hit him square in the breastplate, knocking him to the ground... But he got up...

He shot him 3 more times, rapid fire, with all rounds hitting center mass. He was airborne when the third round hit, being knocked back by the force of the 230gr. ball ammo... He got back up.

He emptied the clip, reloaded, and shot three rounds from that clip. He fell, and started to get back up, but fell down in a pool of his own blood...

The point of the story? You can have PERFECT shot placement and be an expert marksman. Everything can be textbook. BUT if someone is not in a normal state of mind (or body), they will be affected differently than a normal person unless you get a CNS/head shot.
 
BTW thanks for the honest discussion for those who offered it and not SMUG COMMENTS like the others
Click to expand...

I hope it wasn't my comments you found smug; I certainly didn't mean them that way.

Has anyone done testing on the ballistics of a JHP when it impacts tempered glass or sheetmetal? You would think that would be tested when a cartridge is qualified as a duty round.
 
I'm no expert, but that whole argument seems really silly, and could even be demonstrative of an attitude that's quite dangerous.

One can come up with a bizarre anecdote about how more than a dozen hits from a moderately powerful weapon won't stop a guy, but someone else can come up with instances in which a 250 lb. individual dropped like a fly upon being hit with a .22LR, in fact, I am sure you'll find cases where people have been killed by one shot from an airgun as well. Do these prove that such weapons ARE adequate for self-defense? Extreme examples exist at both sides, but neither are at all good indicators for what is the case the vast majority of the time. This is why 8-year-olds aren't legally allowed to drive cars. You'll find some example somewhere, if you look long and hard enough, of an 8-year-old who can safely drive a car, but the other 99.99% of the time, it's not gonna be the case.

One must understand, that for many people, sheer stopping power (I know that's an iffy term) isn't the only factor that plays a role in their choice of SD weapon. Factors like accuracy, ease of use, conceal-ability, among others also play a role. There are people who probably cannot handle a .44 mag well, or shoot it accurately, or they may have trouble carrying one on account of size/weight and thus carry it less often. In such cases, even though a .44 mag is more powerful than something like .32ACP, in the hands of such a person, it would be a LESS effective self-defense weapon.
 
altered state of mind changes everything. You can't react to being shot if you mentally can't know you are being shot because you are so drunk/high/adrenaline rushed. If you have no state of mind it is even worse, because nothing registers in your head.
to answer the original question- enough gun has the following
1. something YOU can handle shooting
2. reliability
3. conceal ability
4. comfort
5. whatever else.
accuracy goes hand in hand with reliability in my mind.
 
I just read a factual account, of a Law Enforcment incident, in which an officer took 2 rds of 9mm in the arm and 2 more in the thigh while putting 17 rds of .40 center mass and 5 more in the limbs of a wanted man who was intoxicated on nothing more than alcohal. The BG lived 4 mins after the last rd was fired. This was a shootout around two vehicles and the rounds were fired here and there, not all at once. The ammo used by the LEO was Ranger sxt's and obviously not effective. I want to hear from those 9mm fanboys who say they only need good ammo and shot placement and the 9mm is effective. I beg to differ, if the 40 didnt do it how do you believe a 9mm will? Sorry but I will stick with magnum calibers (357, 41, and 44) out of revolvers that are proven manstoppers. This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.
Flame away
Click to expand...


you read accounts? NO WAI!!!!
well, based off of your obviously grandiose knowledge, i might as well toss those 9mm and 40 cal bullets.... sounds like i'd be lucky if they penetrated the skin! Maybe it's all a ruse.... the 9mm was invented by gnomes who only wanted to give the illusion of lethality.
Well, thank god nobody's been killed by 9mm... I can rest better knowing tonight that unless someone comes at me with a "magnum" caliber, i'll be a-ok ;)
Hell, that face transplant woman was shot in the face with a 12ga and is STILL alive, not a puny 4 minutes.... that's another account right there... obviously 12ga isnt lethal either.

magnum callibers... not only lethal, but grade A compensation for lack of manhood :D

how's that for smug?
 
Last edited:
True Story--

Read about a perp in Idaho who soaked up 17 rounds of 45 acp before giving up the fight.

Didn't the New York Police call the 38 Special revolver the "widowmaker" because the bullets would kill but not put the assailant down before the LEO was fatally injured??

The human body can go 4 minutes without circulation being clinically dead.

Just like hunting dangerous game, when the adrenalines up you have to brain 'em to put them down. I guess if a perps bloods up it doesn't matter what handgun round you shoot them with.

Sounds like a tactics issue to me, but I certainly am no expert.

??If they are coming at you go for the CNS if two shots to CM don't show effect??
 
he ended up shooting a Vietcong officer that was high on "Beetle Nut". He hit him square in the breastplate, knocking him to the ground... But he got up...

He shot him 3 more times, rapid fire, with all rounds hitting center mass. He was airborne when the third round hit, being knocked back by the force of the 230gr. ball ammo... He got back up.

He emptied the clip, reloaded, and shot three rounds from that clip. He fell, and started to get back up, but fell down in a pool of his own blood...
Click to expand...

And that´s why zombies are so damn dangerous... but really, even headshots sometimes are not enough. A neighbour of mine -a Malvinas veteran- received a bullet from a Sistema Colt (a great argentinian 1911 clon, you know) in the forehead while trying to impede a robbery a few years ago. The bullet went right through his skull but he managed to drive his car to the hospital in order to be taken care of. He collapsed there, but after some surgery and platinum plates, he recovered completely.

He´s sixty years old now, and looks a lot healthier than me.
 
Thing is, all commonly accepted self defense calibers have worked, more often than they have failed...but it sure sucks to be in an incident that ______ didnt seem to work fast enough. The current stats is that in order of 70% of people in the U.S. shot with a handgun that make it to the hospital will live over it.

The main thing is not be shocked into inaction when your favorite caliber and load fails to instantly stop somebody like they do on TV shows.....and keep doing what ever it takes to win( keep shooting, and dont be stingy with the bullets)
 
magnum callibers... not only lethal, but grade A compensation for lack of manhood
Click to expand...

Id rather be a woman with a .44 than a dumbass who only packs a 9mm because somehow he thinks his balls are somehow gonna save him in a gunfight.

As for common self defense calibers not working more often, thats not it at all. its just that when a text book shootout against a BG happens, and the good guy lives and everyone goes home, the only people who hear about it are the locals. the ones everyone hears about are the shootouts that go wrong.
 
Id rather be a woman with a .44 than a dumbass who only packs a 9mm because somehow he thinks his balls are somehow gonna save him in a gunfight.
Click to expand...
you got that mixed up... the 9mm are there to protect the balls, the 44 is for those who have no balls to defend. ;)
 
ha ha yeah I know im not sayin it out of malice or anything. I take alot of heat for only carrying a p22 when I go hiking in northern az. Well when you guys hear about how a black bear came out of the forest and sodomized some hiker and then left him there and never called him back, you can all give me crap:D
 
ha ha yeah I know im not sayin it out of malice or anything. I take alot of heat for only carrying a p22 when I go hiking in northern az. Well when you guys hear about how a black bear came out of the forest and sodomized some hiker and then left him there and never called him back, you can all give me crap
Click to expand...

:eek:


black bear sodomy.....


epic
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top