what is enough gun

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mnhntr

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I just read a factual account, of a Law Enforcment incident, in which an officer took 2 rds of 9mm in the arm and 2 more in the thigh while putting 17 rds of .40 center mass and 5 more in the limbs of a wanted man who was intoxicated on nothing more than alcohal. The BG lived 4 mins after the last rd was fired. This was a shootout around two vehicles and the rounds were fired here and there, not all at once. The ammo used by the LEO was Ranger sxt's and obviously not effective. I want to hear from those 9mm fanboys who say they only need good ammo and shot placement and the 9mm is effective. I beg to differ, if the 40 didnt do it how do you believe a 9mm will? Sorry but I will stick with magnum calibers (357, 41, and 44) out of revolvers that are proven manstoppers. This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.
Flame away:cool:
 
This incident coupled with some personal experience just adds more proof to my theory that the popular auto rounds dont have what I feel is the adaquate power for SD.
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Proof, huh? One incident?
hysterical.gif
Soon as I gather myself properly, I'll toss all my .45s in the can.:rolleyes:
 
I said in my post, this combined with other factual incidents which I have seen personally. So I am not using one incident, but several.
 
I dont include the .45acp in this group as I have seen the holes it will produce with the right ammo. I am talking more of the 380, 9mm, and 40
 
Uhhh.....

.40 Smith & Wesson (S&W)
This cartridge was developed as a joint venture between Winchester and Smith & Wesson in 1989. It was an effort to to create a cartridge with the same power as the 10mm Norma round that the FBI had just started using, but in a shorter case. The shorter cartridge would facilitate accuracy and allow use of a smaller, more comfortable grip frame. The .40 S&W has become the cartridge of choice for many law enforcement agencies in the United States. Typical bullet weight for this cartridge ranges from 135 to 180 grains with an average muzzle energy that approaches 500 ft-lbs.

.357 Magnum
This cartridge was introduced in 1935 by Smith & Wesson for its heavy-frame revolver. Ammunition was developed by Winchester in cooperation with Smith & Wesson. Using a lengthened and strengthened version of the .38 Special case, the .357 Magnum was rapidly accepted by hunters and law enforcement. At the time of its introduction, it was claimed to easily pierce the body panels of automobiles and crack engine blocks. While it has less power than .44 Magnum, it compares favorably to the 10mm Norma and .45 ACP, but with better armor penetration. Today factories offer over fifty different loadings in this caliber. Bullet weights range from 110 to 200 grains with an average muzzle energy exceeding 500 ft-lbs.

I have shot many 200gr jhp's from my full size .40 that easily exceed the 500 ft-lbs. muzzle energy. AND..... I can put 20 neat holes in a 6" circle at 15 yds. in just a few seconds. Obviously that cop was using inferior SD ammo.
 
I have no experience with Ranger SXT ammo but I have heard from other LEOs that it is their departments issue ammo. I should have stated that some of the rounds passed through the windsheild and side window before hitting center mass, but in my mind thats not a good enough excuse for the poor performance.
 
Well, 10mm is the way I plan on going when I get ready to buy a real auto. But I will tell you I doubt there is anything you are going to do with 6 rnds of .357 that can't be done by 17 rounds of .40 S&W.
 
I am not sure iI agree with that statement because of the fact that the 357 mag has greater penetration abillity which MAY have been an issue.
 
someone drunk enough to take 17 rounds of .40 and keep going is not going to feel anything short of being knocked on their back or there CNS being affected. In animal defense, I would say there could be a difference between a few round of .357 and alot of rounds of .40. But if you want penetration go with fmj
 
Wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot somebody through a car door with an autoloader, you get a full-power 10mm or a 357Sig. 9mm +P+ would probably get the job done as well.

Not the mention, the JHPs that a cop is likely to carry are less likely than FMJ to penetrate a steel car door
 
someone drunk enough to take 17 rounds of .40 and keep going is not going to feel anything short of being knocked on their back or there CNS being affected. In animal defense, I would say there could be a difference between a few round of .357 and alot of rounds of .40. But if you want penetration go with fmj
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I am thinking this was a combination of the wrong ammo and not enough power. If a SD round wont go through glass with enough power to defeat the BG it is not good enough IMO for SD. I think this is a good case for choosing ammo for all situations not just one.
 
Wrong tool for the job. If you want to shoot somebody through a car door with an autoloader, you get a full-power 10mm or a 357Sig. 9mm +P+ would probably get the job done as well.

Not the mention, the JHPs that a cop is likely to carry are less likely than FMJ to penetrate a steel car door
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It was not the cars door but the glass that was between the LEO and the BG and even though the automobile has laminated glass it should not defeat your SD round. I am thinking if this was a person stopping a BG from carjacking them it would have stopped the attack. But if it is an attacker bent on hurting them it may not have. I agree with the 10mm or 357 sig probally being better than the 40 or 9mm but I still think the 357 sig is too light in this situation.
 
People have been killed with .22 shorts, people have survived full power .357 to the heart (Stacy Lim comes to mind) and 12ga slugs to the head (DeCoatesworth in Philly). Calm down about it. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few foot/pounds of energy, or a couple milimeters of diameter don't matter as much as hitting accurately. I'd rather face an idiot with a .44mag than a skilled shooter with a .22short.
 
People have been killed with .22 shorts, people have survived full power .357 to the heart (Stacy Lim comes to mind) and 12ga slugs to the head (DeCoatesworth in Philly). Calm down about it. The difference of a few grains of weight, a few foot/pounds of energy, or a couple milimeters of diameter don't matter as much as hitting accurately. I'd rather face an idiot with a .44mag than a skilled shooter with a .22short.
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While there is ALOT of truth to this statement, I think the odds are in the favor of certain rounds being more effective than others. And I would rather be the one with the better odds.
 
Sometimes .22s kill people, sometimes .45s don't. There are plenty of recorded incidents of people getting pipes/sticks/railroad spikes through the head and surviving. There's that one guy who's missing literally a third of his cranium and is mostly okay. Then there's that one actress who fell down on the bunny slope and bumped her head. She was fine for hours until she keeled over dead. You can chalk all such thing up to: $#!@ Happens.
 
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