That is it precisely(If you stick with that principle, you just may become a libertarian). But look at how many "popular" laws and regulations violate that principle as the definitions of "direct impact", "general welfare", and "interstate commerce" are stretched beyond all recognition
What is "conservatism" about?
- Thread starter GoSlash27
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
you know how gay originally meant happy, but now it means homosexual, same deal with liberal and conservative
liberal- less centralized control. Think bout when you hear that an industry is being liberalized.
conservative-conserve power in a central authority
The parties just hijacked the terms as they hijacked everything else
Democrats are traditionally socially (drugs, abortion, freedom of religion, etc.) liberal, while being economically conservative.
Republicans are usually socially conservative while being economically liberal.
Libertarians, a subset of people believing in classical liberalism (true liberalism), are both socially and economically liberal.
Some classical liberals, who are also probably Libertarians offer a quiz which anylizes where you stand on common issues and indicates a political party/movement which fits your beliefs. The quiz is accurate concerning hour rsponses but one or two of the questions are definitely framed to point you toward classical liberalism. I think if you have never taken this quiz before you definitely should. It is only about 10 multiple choice questions.
liberal- less centralized control. Think bout when you hear that an industry is being liberalized.
conservative-conserve power in a central authority
The parties just hijacked the terms as they hijacked everything else
Democrats are traditionally socially (drugs, abortion, freedom of religion, etc.) liberal, while being economically conservative.
Republicans are usually socially conservative while being economically liberal.
Libertarians, a subset of people believing in classical liberalism (true liberalism), are both socially and economically liberal.
Some classical liberals, who are also probably Libertarians offer a quiz which anylizes where you stand on common issues and indicates a political party/movement which fits your beliefs. The quiz is accurate concerning hour rsponses but one or two of the questions are definitely framed to point you toward classical liberalism. I think if you have never taken this quiz before you definitely should. It is only about 10 multiple choice questions.
Yes I see your point but people and companies(mainly companies) won't follow that, which is why you need laws to prevent them from doing things that negatively effect those around them.
I am personally OK with some of my tax money going to social programs, I just want to know its not being wasted instead of serving the function which it is supposed to have.
I do agree allot of these laws and restrictions shouldn't be in place though and how we handle violations needs to be allot different, throwing somone in jail because they had some dope isn't a good use of tax payer money
whytep38 said:
That's pretty close. If anyone is genuinely interested in what conservatism is, I recommend reading Edmund Burke.
A conservative seeks to conserve our living traditions. Accordingly at different times in history, they have sought to conserve traditions of monarchy, religion, law and liberty from law. They will show a tempermental distrust of solutions worked out in someone's head only and based on abstract principle exclusively, like the Equal Rights Amendment, because these ideas so often are a poor fit for the people we actually are.
Whyte, the reason you idea is so close, is that american conservatives will seek to conserve american traditions of liberty. This gets us into all sorts of confusion since american ideas of liberty are almost exclusively liberal, thought not in a Robespierre-kill-all-your-enemies way. American liberalism is the liberalism of the slave owning, religious planter, the merchant and the banker -- all people who valued their liberty and liberalism for the order it brought rather than any destruction of the old order.
People whose only experience is american politics will confuse the policies american conservatives support with the ideologies with which those positions may be compatible. An economic conservative may support low taxes and small government because they work nicely or limit the power of destructive "progressive elements", but not out of a libertarian ideological zeal.
An american conservative is also likely to seek to conserve social expressions of belief through matters of criminal code, family law and character training in schools. You can make cases for contrary positions, but those cases all rely on liberal rationales.
This means that statements that " A real conservative believes in X policy " are almost always problemmatic. Being conservative has less to do with the position at which you arrive, and more to do with how you arrive at it.
This is the legal and political section of this Forum, which I presume you realized when you posted in the "Legal and Political" section. There are other sections of this Forum that are dedicated to the buying, selling, and discussion of firearms.
Let me guess: you read that Senator McCain advocated this in the latest issue of American Rifleman magazine.
And I suppose that (once again) you can't provide the quote from Senator McCain and/or provide the page number of the article from which Senator McCain purportedly advocates this. Because Senator McCain has never advocated banning intra-state FTF transfers.No, his statement was perfectly clear, and it didn't at all state what you claimed it asserted. You said the following: "The presumptive GOP Presidential candidate, John McCain, is in the current issue of American Rifleman advocating the elimination of all private transfer of firearms outside of immediate family members." And you were wrong. There is nothing "evasive" about his statement. He advocates neither the elimination of private transfers of firearms, nor the elimination of private transfer of firearms between non-related persons. He's never done that. If you don't like his specific position on a particular matter, then simply say so. But please don't try and tell us that McCain want to ban FTF gun sales, because he doesn't.
As a joke, when the issue of "What's the difference between a conservative and a liberal" comes up, I often joke: "A conservative wants to control your appetites for sex and drugs. A liberal wants to control your appetites for everything except sex and drugs."
Not entirely accurate, but people seem to find some basic validity to it.
Not entirely accurate, but people seem to find some basic validity to it.
Fremmer,
McCain is known for his "straight talk". What does "I also oppose efforts to require federal regulation of all private sales such as the transfer between a father and son or husband and wife." mean? It is a fact that McCain wants to institute more federal regulation on what are now private sales by non-dealers. How far will he go?
"Gun show loophole" legislation by McCain
http://davekopel.org/2A/IP/gunshows2.htm
Gun Owners of America on John McCain
http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm
McCain is known for his "straight talk". What does "I also oppose efforts to require federal regulation of all private sales such as the transfer between a father and son or husband and wife." mean? It is a fact that McCain wants to institute more federal regulation on what are now private sales by non-dealers. How far will he go?
"Gun show loophole" legislation by McCain
http://davekopel.org/2A/IP/gunshows2.htm
Gun Owners of America on John McCain
http://www.gunowners.org/mccaintb.htm
Wildalaska
Moderator
The minute you post a link from GOA you lose credibility
WilditsthescreechfactorAlaska TM
WilditsthescreechfactorAlaska TM
Wildalaska,
I don't think McCain is as bad on 2nd Amendment rights as GOA makes him out to be. I think he is sincere in his pro-gun views. I fear his tendency for legislative compromise and what the BATF will do with new restrictions on private transfers. It is all about the unintended consequences.
He is light years better than Romney or Giuliani, much less Obama and Clinton.
I believe we need fewer gun control laws, McCain believes we need more.
I don't think McCain is as bad on 2nd Amendment rights as GOA makes him out to be. I think he is sincere in his pro-gun views. I fear his tendency for legislative compromise and what the BATF will do with new restrictions on private transfers. It is all about the unintended consequences.
He is light years better than Romney or Giuliani, much less Obama and Clinton.
I believe we need fewer gun control laws, McCain believes we need more.
Absolutely right on. The astonishing thing is, people will actually vote for McCain and claim they are pro-2nd amendment.
Don't listen to WildAlaska acr. He doesn't play nice with anyone who doesn't agree with him, including those of us who are proud card carrying members of the GOA, the 2nd largest pro-gun organization in the USA.
FireMax,
I'm for Barr as well. I always vote my beliefs rather than "pragmatically".
(FWIW, I didn't vote for a POTUS candidate in 2004 as there was no one on the ballot I could support) That said, I would think anyone living in a close "swing state", for whom 2A is their single issue, should vote for McCain.
I'm for Barr as well. I always vote my beliefs rather than "pragmatically".
(FWIW, I didn't vote for a POTUS candidate in 2004 as there was no one on the ballot I could support) That said, I would think anyone living in a close "swing state", for whom 2A is their single issue, should vote for McCain.
toybox99615
New member
so conservatives claim
they do not want government intervention into our live: except they do want gay marriage, the return of school prayer, the end of abortions and lots of other issues where the government would edict what is right for all of us.
they do not want government intervention into our live: except they do want gay marriage, the return of school prayer, the end of abortions and lots of other issues where the government would edict what is right for all of us.
The difference between liberal and conservative 'these days' is next to nothing. Any candidate is going to try for as much of each one, as it takes to get elected. They all want you to get on their bandwagon.
All the bandwagons are going to the same place, via different routes.
In the end it's just a matter of how fast you go off the cliff.
All the bandwagons are going to the same place, via different routes.
In the end it's just a matter of how fast you go off the cliff.
Last edited by a moderator:
ajaxinacan
New member
I feel the need to clarify this issue.
Most modern conservatives believe the federal government should not be involved in the issues of gay marriage, prayer in schools, or abortion. Those are rightly states issues that were addressed by the states for many decades prior to federal involvement. It was federal involvement (brought by liberals) that caused the problem.
Remember, abortion wasn't illegal prior to Roe v Wade, it was simply not legal everywhere. Federal involvement took away a state's right to legislate the issue according to the wishes of the voters. Same with prayer and gay marriage.
Modern conversatives aren't trying to "outlaw" abortion, or "edict what is right" (sic), they're trying to return those issues to the states where they traditionally resided.
Why wouldn't we want a prayer before a football game or commencement? If my state or local school board approves, what business is it of the governnment?
On McCain --- I actually watched the speech you guys are arguing about. He said he supported instant, affordable background checks for gun sales at gun shows (his emphasis on "instant"). In the next sentence, he said he did not support federal restrictions on transfers of arms between close family members, such as a husband and a wife. Until this thread, I hadn't heard anyone try to twist his words to say he supported restricting private transfers of arms between private citizens (apart from gun shows), or between relatives.
Thanks. Ajax out.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Yeah I do horrible things like remind them of logic, reason and critical thinking
WildcarryonwiththescreechingandadhominemsAlaska TM
PS and I dont think much at all of the GOA and their screeching. Nor do a large number of us here
Yeah, the GOA folks are back. The GOA can't even interpret simple federal statutes. At least not correctly. And they accomplish absolutely nothing. The GOA says the moon is made of green cheese, ergo McCain doesn't like guns. Welcome to GOA/neo-lib absurdity.
By the way, I'm still waiting from a quote by John McCain stating that he wants to end FTF firearm transfers. My guess is that instead, I'll get another silly editorial from GOA, which will be devoid of any statement by John McCain, or that will simply misrepresent his position on guns. That would fit the pattern, anyway.
By the way, I'm still waiting from a quote by John McCain stating that he wants to end FTF firearm transfers. My guess is that instead, I'll get another silly editorial from GOA, which will be devoid of any statement by John McCain, or that will simply misrepresent his position on guns. That would fit the pattern, anyway.
toybox99615
New member
just one of the issues that is related to your
"Why wouldn't we want a prayer before a football game or commencement? If my state or local school board approves, what business is it of the government?"
why should my kid have to participate in your prayers. Teens and younger kids get ostracized real fast when they are not conforming to some peer pressures. But lets not steal this thread by getting off point.
There are plenty of issue on all sides of most of the social issues regarding what liberals and conservatives are. For the most part rather than actually attempting to compare the two too many people simply rely on flinging out the labels in an effort to defend their opinions. One thing for sure is that all sides have opinions that are basically the same and some that are miles apart. However in a democracy you can not simply let any one side run a muck by demanding it there way or no way. I believe the issue of who is what is more of a party boss finger pointing way to keep people aligned with the party. If the other team is not like you than you must be better.
NOTE: "edict" is the appropriate word as it is in reference to religious fanatic who want to tell you what is right based on thier beliefs and presented by one of the richeous leaders like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.
"Why wouldn't we want a prayer before a football game or commencement? If my state or local school board approves, what business is it of the government?"
why should my kid have to participate in your prayers. Teens and younger kids get ostracized real fast when they are not conforming to some peer pressures. But lets not steal this thread by getting off point.
There are plenty of issue on all sides of most of the social issues regarding what liberals and conservatives are. For the most part rather than actually attempting to compare the two too many people simply rely on flinging out the labels in an effort to defend their opinions. One thing for sure is that all sides have opinions that are basically the same and some that are miles apart. However in a democracy you can not simply let any one side run a muck by demanding it there way or no way. I believe the issue of who is what is more of a party boss finger pointing way to keep people aligned with the party. If the other team is not like you than you must be better.
NOTE: "edict" is the appropriate word as it is in reference to religious fanatic who want to tell you what is right based on thier beliefs and presented by one of the richeous leaders like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Uhh, the school board is the government...
I think it is possible some of you are misinterpreting this to mean he supports legislation banning private transfers betwen people who are not immediate family. It really does not say that, and you are interjecting it. It is JUST as possible that he opposes legislation that bans private transfers between anyone, but is trying to diffuse the gun control advocates a little by using the father - son example. Unless he clarifies, or votes in a way that shows it, you do not know what you are talking about, but only grasping.
It is NOT clear at all. You are making it up. And, you are for sure full of crap about what you come here to do. You say you come here not to argue politics, but then you not only join in political threads, you keep on and on. You CLAIM one thing, and DO another. Maybe you should go into politics. Seems like the MO of a politician these days.