What is better for home defense? Stock or Pistol Grip?
- Thread starter G30 Man
- Start date
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G30 Man:
Thanks![/quote]
Stock, DEFINITELY STOCK.
Pistol grips look mean and nasty, and most people, without the proper training, can't hit a thing with them.
There are a LOT of things to recommend the stocked version of a shotgun over a pistol gripped version:
1. Better ability to control the gun during firing.
2. You can actually aim the stocked shotgun (ok, ok, point). Try doing that with a pistol-gripped gun, and then fire it, and it will end up in the middle of your forehead.
3. If you get to the point where you grapple with someone, the fact that the stock is on it makes it easier to retain. You get it locked in under your arm, and it will be tough to yank loose.
One of the most common things a person will do when shooting a pistol-gripped shotgun is to shoot WAY high.
Unless you're willing to seek out a specialist's course in how to handle a stockless shotgun, I highly advise you to stick with the stocked version.
Thanks![/quote]
Stock, DEFINITELY STOCK.
Pistol grips look mean and nasty, and most people, without the proper training, can't hit a thing with them.
There are a LOT of things to recommend the stocked version of a shotgun over a pistol gripped version:
1. Better ability to control the gun during firing.
2. You can actually aim the stocked shotgun (ok, ok, point). Try doing that with a pistol-gripped gun, and then fire it, and it will end up in the middle of your forehead.
3. If you get to the point where you grapple with someone, the fact that the stock is on it makes it easier to retain. You get it locked in under your arm, and it will be tough to yank loose.
One of the most common things a person will do when shooting a pistol-gripped shotgun is to shoot WAY high.
Unless you're willing to seek out a specialist's course in how to handle a stockless shotgun, I highly advise you to stick with the stocked version.
OK, one more time...
During my career with the Md Dept of Public Safety, I taught hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot,including with shotguns. For part of that time, we had folding w/ PG stocks in some rapid response vehicles,and all troops had to qualify with them, shooting from the hip.
Instructors had to qualify to 90%,and we shot demos,etc. All in all, I shot hundreds of rounds a year. Most troops found it more difficult to qualify with the PG and hip shooting, some found it impossible.
In an AS scenario, I'll shoot my shotguns from the shoulder and aimed at anything more than contact range.
I know some pretty serious WIHTF types, NONE of them have PGs on their shotguns, except for a specialized VERY CQ tool,and not often then.
During my career with the Md Dept of Public Safety, I taught hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot,including with shotguns. For part of that time, we had folding w/ PG stocks in some rapid response vehicles,and all troops had to qualify with them, shooting from the hip.
Instructors had to qualify to 90%,and we shot demos,etc. All in all, I shot hundreds of rounds a year. Most troops found it more difficult to qualify with the PG and hip shooting, some found it impossible.
In an AS scenario, I'll shoot my shotguns from the shoulder and aimed at anything more than contact range.
I know some pretty serious WIHTF types, NONE of them have PGs on their shotguns, except for a specialized VERY CQ tool,and not often then.
Stock.
The shotgun evolved without a pistol grip and with a stock for a multitude of reasons.
This is a variation on a basic law of nature: "If nobody uses it, there is a reason."
That said, go with what YOU are most comfortable shooting. If you really have practiced a LOT with a pistol grip and find it better than a stock, shoot a pistol grip. But most people I have seen with PG shotguns (and thats not very many) get serious wrist pain after a couple of rounds, and either go back to stock shotguns or (stupidly) keep the PG and just don't practice.
Whichever you choose, you GOTTA practice.
Mike
------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
The shotgun evolved without a pistol grip and with a stock for a multitude of reasons.
This is a variation on a basic law of nature: "If nobody uses it, there is a reason."
That said, go with what YOU are most comfortable shooting. If you really have practiced a LOT with a pistol grip and find it better than a stock, shoot a pistol grip. But most people I have seen with PG shotguns (and thats not very many) get serious wrist pain after a couple of rounds, and either go back to stock shotguns or (stupidly) keep the PG and just don't practice.
Whichever you choose, you GOTTA practice.
Mike
------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
>2. You can actually aim the stocked shotgun >(ok, ok, point). Try doing that with a >pistol-gripped gun, and then fire it, and it >will end up in the middle of your forehead.
Heh!
>3. If you get to the point where you grapple >with someone, the fact that the stock is on >it makes it easier to retain. You get it >locked in under your arm, and it will be >tough to yank loose.
Plus, with a stock shotgun, the BUTTSTROKE is a lovely option.
*THUNK*
Mike
Heh!
>3. If you get to the point where you grapple >with someone, the fact that the stock is on >it makes it easier to retain. You get it >locked in under your arm, and it will be >tough to yank loose.
Plus, with a stock shotgun, the BUTTSTROKE is a lovely option.
*THUNK*
Mike
Jeff Thomas
New member
Everyone above has made the point.
And, take a tactical shotgun course. After your first 20 or 30 rounds of buckshot and slugs, you'll be glad you've got a stock. A 12 gauge does have a bit of a kick ... I honestly can't imagine using a PG to shoot buckshot and slugs.
And, take a tactical shotgun course. After your first 20 or 30 rounds of buckshot and slugs, you'll be glad you've got a stock. A 12 gauge does have a bit of a kick ... I honestly can't imagine using a PG to shoot buckshot and slugs.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monkeyleg:
Ok, so what is everyone's experience with a shotgun that has a traditional shoulder stock _and_ a pistol grip? The PG on a rifle has never seemed to affect aiming for me. Just curious about the experiences of the veteran shotgun shooters.
Dick[/quote]
I look at a pistol grip/stock setup as being about the same. Ideally, if someone gets hold of the muzzle of the gun a pistolgrip stock is going to make it a little easier to hang onto.
At the same time, it will make it a little harder to effectively buttstroke someone.
Ok, so what is everyone's experience with a shotgun that has a traditional shoulder stock _and_ a pistol grip? The PG on a rifle has never seemed to affect aiming for me. Just curious about the experiences of the veteran shotgun shooters.
Dick[/quote]
I look at a pistol grip/stock setup as being about the same. Ideally, if someone gets hold of the muzzle of the gun a pistolgrip stock is going to make it a little easier to hang onto.
At the same time, it will make it a little harder to effectively buttstroke someone.
Rosco Benson
New member
Go with a stock and AIM the shotgun. At home defense ranges, the piece will need to be aimed almost as precisely as a rifle.
As to this "butt-stroking" stuff; if you need to use the shotgun as an impact weapon, just drive the muzzle forcibly into your opponent's face, throat, or gut...just like a good bayonet thrust. The butt-stroke is easier to dodge or negate by moving inside its arc. Moreover, the butt-stroke often ends up with one's muzzle pointing reward over one's "off" shoulder...back toward friendlies...bad juju.
Rosco
As to this "butt-stroking" stuff; if you need to use the shotgun as an impact weapon, just drive the muzzle forcibly into your opponent's face, throat, or gut...just like a good bayonet thrust. The butt-stroke is easier to dodge or negate by moving inside its arc. Moreover, the butt-stroke often ends up with one's muzzle pointing reward over one's "off" shoulder...back toward friendlies...bad juju.
Rosco
My admittedly limited experience with PG-stocked shotguns is that they are like...erm. hmm...how to say this cleanly? A PG on a stocked shotgun is like bull nipples.
Try it. If you like it, *shrug*. To me it just seems to get in the way. But I've only used stocked shotguns extensively, so it might be prior training interfering.
Mike
------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
[This message has been edited by Coronach (edited April 17, 2000).]
Try it. If you like it, *shrug*. To me it just seems to get in the way. But I've only used stocked shotguns extensively, so it might be prior training interfering.
Mike
------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
[This message has been edited by Coronach (edited April 17, 2000).]
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Told to me by John Satterwhite: Consider a tactical situation, where you are doing some sort of search for a bad guy, noise source in the night, whatever. You will likely be at a sort of port arms, as that helps with retention and is a quick position from which to point and shoot, or club or butt-stroke.
Try that with a full-stock pistol-grip gun: Awkward for the wrist, right? Poor force-control for anything other than a shot from a horizontal-carry position. And so forth and so on. Awkward is Bad.
(John Satterwhite, aside from being a US skeet and trap champ and on a couple of US Olympic teams, demonstrates trick shots. My favorite is his throwing seven claybirds out by hand, and then shooting all of them before they hit the ground, with his 870. When guys like that talk, I listen.)
Regards, Art
Try that with a full-stock pistol-grip gun: Awkward for the wrist, right? Poor force-control for anything other than a shot from a horizontal-carry position. And so forth and so on. Awkward is Bad.
(John Satterwhite, aside from being a US skeet and trap champ and on a couple of US Olympic teams, demonstrates trick shots. My favorite is his throwing seven claybirds out by hand, and then shooting all of them before they hit the ground, with his 870. When guys like that talk, I listen.)
Regards, Art
OK, help a novice shotgun guy out. Nearly all of the best-in-class combat rifles have a pistol-grip/stock combination, so if it works for them, why not a combat shotgun? I understand the reasoning if all you have is a pistol grip and no stock, but my Benelli M1 aims great from the shoulder as well as shoots well from the hip with the pistol/stock combo.
Go for the standard stock. The pistol grip (with full stock) may be slightly preferable for houseclearing in the underarm assault position, but you can do it almost as easily with a standard stock.
The pistol grip (no stock) has little use beyond a dedicated breaching shotgun. Avoid these if you're not looking for a door-busting gun.
The standard stock will allow you to extend the capacity (assuming state and local law allow) of a semi-auto shotgun. As mentioned by Erick, it also aids in weapon retention situations.
I suspect the reason why the current issue military shotgun (the Benelli M4) has a pistol grip is to avoid conditional branching issues when training. They're probably thinking that since the M16/M4 has a pistol grip, the combat shotgun should also have one to simplify training. Who knows.
Justin
------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
The pistol grip (no stock) has little use beyond a dedicated breaching shotgun. Avoid these if you're not looking for a door-busting gun.
The standard stock will allow you to extend the capacity (assuming state and local law allow) of a semi-auto shotgun. As mentioned by Erick, it also aids in weapon retention situations.
I suspect the reason why the current issue military shotgun (the Benelli M4) has a pistol grip is to avoid conditional branching issues when training. They're probably thinking that since the M16/M4 has a pistol grip, the combat shotgun should also have one to simplify training. Who knows.
Justin
------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
robins, I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough: It's not the shooting. It's the tactical "what-ifs" before any shooting.
One of the what-ifs is a bad guy popping out of shadows and grabbing for your gun. Anything but a port-arms position leaves you vulnerable. With a pistol-grip stock, your hand is in an awkward position, your wrist is bent, and you just cannot put out enough force to use the gun for a downward clubbing motion nor for a buttstroke.
If you have the gun mounted to the shoulder, or horizontal from the hip, there are a ton of guys out there who, from a range of six to ten feet, can take that gun away from you and make you eat it.
Again, it's not the shooting I'm talking about. It's all the bad stuff that can happen before one perceives the actual need to shoot.
Regards, Art
One of the what-ifs is a bad guy popping out of shadows and grabbing for your gun. Anything but a port-arms position leaves you vulnerable. With a pistol-grip stock, your hand is in an awkward position, your wrist is bent, and you just cannot put out enough force to use the gun for a downward clubbing motion nor for a buttstroke.
If you have the gun mounted to the shoulder, or horizontal from the hip, there are a ton of guys out there who, from a range of six to ten feet, can take that gun away from you and make you eat it.
Again, it's not the shooting I'm talking about. It's all the bad stuff that can happen before one perceives the actual need to shoot.
Regards, Art
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I've taken a tactical shotgun class and fired pistol grips. No comparison in recoil control and accuracy.
You simply cannot aim the pistol grip. We did a set of hostage rescue exercises with tactical buckshoot. Now that's spooky but you might have to save a family member. No way,
you want to do that with a nonaimed pistol grip.
As far as aiming it, I know three guys who have eaten the gun trying it. One who could do it was a heavy lifter and wrassler. I will attest though that sufficient Shiner and sitting under a tree in the Hill Country will cure pistol grip mouth.
You simply cannot aim the pistol grip. We did a set of hostage rescue exercises with tactical buckshoot. Now that's spooky but you might have to save a family member. No way,
you want to do that with a nonaimed pistol grip.
As far as aiming it, I know three guys who have eaten the gun trying it. One who could do it was a heavy lifter and wrassler. I will attest though that sufficient Shiner and sitting under a tree in the Hill Country will cure pistol grip mouth.
Patrick Graham
Moderator
If you use pistol grips on a Mossberg 500 or Rem 870 are limited in the ammunition you can use. 1 oz non mag game loads are great. 3 inch magnums could be a danger to the user. With 3 inch mags you can't hold the pistol grip against your side unless have body armor on. You will knock the wind out of yourself. You could get the famous bloody nose if you try to hold it far enough in front of your face to aim it. Been there, done that, bought the bloody tee shirt on both of those. I also recommend Ace bandages wrapped around your wrist and around your thumb joint, they help with mags.
Heavy, gas operated semi autos with pistol grips are bound to be different but I've only used pumps.
Heavy, gas operated semi autos with pistol grips are bound to be different but I've only used pumps.
Art, you have some good points on the pre-shoot tactical considerations. Retention of the pistol grip weapon is definitely inferior to a full stock held in port arms.
Patrick, The wicked recoil you speak of must be specific to the Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. My experience with 3" Remington Express magnums 000 or #4 buck in a Winchester 1200 is nowhere near what you describe. Shooting from the hip or slightly in front thereof works out quite well. I can place my shots within a few inches of my desired impact point. Practice is the key. But I admit that the 3" magnums do result in the feeling of a slightly stoved wrist and thus I wouldn't want to shoot a few dozen of them per day in that fashion. As to risk to one's thumb, I do not understand from where that would arise if the grip is properly and firmly held. The recoil should go directly into the base of the wrist and be absorbed by one's forearm NOT off-center where it impacts the thumb. Aiming from the hip, at ranges of 5 to 8 yards, yields adequate control for the job. Why your guns should make you wish for body armor is beyond me.
Over 8 yards range one should definitely transition to a shoulder stock (as in a stout folding version) so that one can aim from a shoulder mount. I admit to not trying to aim a pistol grip from a high/in-front-of-face position like one does with a revolver. I just assumed that such a position would make gun control near to impossible.
Glenn, as to rescuing a, perhaps, family member close to a perp, I can't see where any shotgun would be wise. One needs a rifle or the experience with a pistol to be a very good shot. An over/under shotgun/rifle may be the ticket in that situation.
Patrick, The wicked recoil you speak of must be specific to the Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. My experience with 3" Remington Express magnums 000 or #4 buck in a Winchester 1200 is nowhere near what you describe. Shooting from the hip or slightly in front thereof works out quite well. I can place my shots within a few inches of my desired impact point. Practice is the key. But I admit that the 3" magnums do result in the feeling of a slightly stoved wrist and thus I wouldn't want to shoot a few dozen of them per day in that fashion. As to risk to one's thumb, I do not understand from where that would arise if the grip is properly and firmly held. The recoil should go directly into the base of the wrist and be absorbed by one's forearm NOT off-center where it impacts the thumb. Aiming from the hip, at ranges of 5 to 8 yards, yields adequate control for the job. Why your guns should make you wish for body armor is beyond me.
Over 8 yards range one should definitely transition to a shoulder stock (as in a stout folding version) so that one can aim from a shoulder mount. I admit to not trying to aim a pistol grip from a high/in-front-of-face position like one does with a revolver. I just assumed that such a position would make gun control near to impossible.
Glenn, as to rescuing a, perhaps, family member close to a perp, I can't see where any shotgun would be wise. One needs a rifle or the experience with a pistol to be a very good shot. An over/under shotgun/rifle may be the ticket in that situation.
Patrick Graham
Moderator
Solitar
Try shooting 3 in. mags with pistol grip tight aginst your side (ie: ribs). You put the stock on in a hurry.
The mossberg 500 is a wicked little gun with pistol grips.. wicked to the user. :0
Try shooting 3 in. mags with pistol grip tight aginst your side (ie: ribs). You put the stock on in a hurry.
The mossberg 500 is a wicked little gun with pistol grips.. wicked to the user. :0