About a year ago I assked the same questions about my BHP and my wifes 1911. Like Peter I count each round for a log book, however I do it to ensure I spread the usefull life of the guns out over our lifetime. I got some very helpful info from an FBI armour who had 1.professional experience 2.a vast amount of test data for helping police departments decide what to buy with life span the very top issue. He goes by 7th Fleet and I hope he can help you. I recall that the data he had said for the most part to expect a 10K life from alloy guns. For me I was concerned about my BHP and my wifes 1911. His books hold us to expect 100K from each. Which brings me to this. Broken Arrow, no flame but where did you get that info about the FBI shooting out there BHP at 50K. I realy want to know for my record system. And on a personal note I can't see cracking the frame of your friends BHP x2 at under 15K unless they had a habit of releasng the slide without ammo in the gun. I am not trying to flame you Broken I just need what info you have.
What is a Pistol's Life Expectancy?
- Thread starter Der Grosse
- Start date
BrokenArrow
New member
No problem.
The info about FBI came from a friend (Jim Pledger) who retired from the FBIs FTU (Firearms Training Unit) and Cylinder & Slide, Novak's, others. Maybe Mr. Boone will weigh in with what he knows about FBI pistols?
I saw plenty of broken BHPs in British military armories in the late 70s. My friend broke two of the older Mk II model frames under 15K doing nothing but normal shooting. The newer Mk III seems tougher.
The figures about the avg service life of Berettas is from latest govt testing and the local USAF base, who have on avg over 30K rounds through all their training guns (mil spec M882 ammo is same as SAAMI +P; they last even longer w std pressure ammo). Alloy framed SIG/Berettas have passed the latest European military and police tests that included 20K round durability tests (an increase from the 10K std of the 70s they were designed for). I have a P226/9mm with over 20K through it, and a friend w a new P229/40 w over 20K, another w a P220/45 w over 40K. Ted Nugent put over 125K through his Beretta 92, then gave it back to Beretta. Some Berettas/SIGs have broken earlier than 10K, most will not.
In OCT 99 the Baltimore County PD found cracks in 52 of their 1400 SIG 226s. The guns still worked though, and they were older guns with lot of rounds through them. The NYPD has had oodles of reliability problems with it's Glocks. A broken SIG that works beats an unbroken Glock that does not?
Just as I have had/seen several Glocks break springs/trigger bars, etc from just normal shooting. Saw a USP frame that broke into two pieces, know of several others that broke firing pins, had a friend who sent his new USP to HK four times to get the same broken parts replaced, and had new Glocks break parts on me out of the box the first trip to the range.
Nothing is perfect. Get what ya like. If ya can afford to shoot enough to wear a gun out, ya can afford to replace it too when it needs it?
I like SIGs. Being as "fragile" as they are, I have three. Still waiting for that first 1992 model to wear out.
[Edited by BrokenArrow on 02-11-2001 at 01:48 PM]
The info about FBI came from a friend (Jim Pledger) who retired from the FBIs FTU (Firearms Training Unit) and Cylinder & Slide, Novak's, others. Maybe Mr. Boone will weigh in with what he knows about FBI pistols?
I saw plenty of broken BHPs in British military armories in the late 70s. My friend broke two of the older Mk II model frames under 15K doing nothing but normal shooting. The newer Mk III seems tougher.
The figures about the avg service life of Berettas is from latest govt testing and the local USAF base, who have on avg over 30K rounds through all their training guns (mil spec M882 ammo is same as SAAMI +P; they last even longer w std pressure ammo). Alloy framed SIG/Berettas have passed the latest European military and police tests that included 20K round durability tests (an increase from the 10K std of the 70s they were designed for). I have a P226/9mm with over 20K through it, and a friend w a new P229/40 w over 20K, another w a P220/45 w over 40K. Ted Nugent put over 125K through his Beretta 92, then gave it back to Beretta. Some Berettas/SIGs have broken earlier than 10K, most will not.
In OCT 99 the Baltimore County PD found cracks in 52 of their 1400 SIG 226s. The guns still worked though, and they were older guns with lot of rounds through them. The NYPD has had oodles of reliability problems with it's Glocks. A broken SIG that works beats an unbroken Glock that does not?
Just as I have had/seen several Glocks break springs/trigger bars, etc from just normal shooting. Saw a USP frame that broke into two pieces, know of several others that broke firing pins, had a friend who sent his new USP to HK four times to get the same broken parts replaced, and had new Glocks break parts on me out of the box the first trip to the range.
Nothing is perfect. Get what ya like. If ya can afford to shoot enough to wear a gun out, ya can afford to replace it too when it needs it?
I like SIGs. Being as "fragile" as they are, I have three. Still waiting for that first 1992 model to wear out.
[Edited by BrokenArrow on 02-11-2001 at 01:48 PM]
The service life of most guns are not that great. Gun companies expect most people to put 1000-2000 rounds through a gun. The HK P7 was designed as a police pistol and it's service life was designed about 2000 rounds. Some of us do shoot more than that. Bruce Gray told me that he put over 100K through his P7 back in the 80's.
The average, non-competing, person will not wear out a gun. So why worry about it.
The average, non-competing, person will not wear out a gun. So why worry about it.
Why worry? Well, I get attached to my guns and hate to get rid of them or wear them right out. Thats it in a nutshell. I am curious Broken Arrow, does the life of the BHP you stated of 50K before there shot out refer to the barrel? Or what other component? frame? slide?
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
Disclaimer: I am not a statistician or an industrial engineer, but I have a basic understanding of some statistical and IE principles that will shed some light on "life expectancy".
Most product life-expectancy is expressed as "mean time to failure" (MTF). Manufacturers take a sample of their product (usually a dozen units or so) and put those units through the paces of their normal use until they fail. The MTF is what you imagine - the average number of cycles required to break the units in the sample.
In a perfect statistical world, the MTF represents the midpoint of the lifetimes of the units that make up the sample. <b>This means that half of the units will fail before they reach the MTF and half will fail afterward.</b> If the MTF of your H&K P7M8 is 20,000 rounds, there's a 50% chance that your pistol will will still be alive and kicking when you reach that point.
I really don't put much faith in stories about people who seem to have a propensity for making their guns/cars/computers last indefinitely. Please don't expect your G17 to last 500,000+ rounds just because someone else's did. You're as statistically likely to get a lemon as you are to get an indestructible unit like that.
Stoic hit the nail right on the head with regard to the warranty. A consumer can't tell whether the unit he buys is indestructible or a lemon. The warranty is the manufacturer's way of inspiring consumer confidence in a product whose <b>actual</b> lifetime is totally unknown.
Most product life-expectancy is expressed as "mean time to failure" (MTF). Manufacturers take a sample of their product (usually a dozen units or so) and put those units through the paces of their normal use until they fail. The MTF is what you imagine - the average number of cycles required to break the units in the sample.
In a perfect statistical world, the MTF represents the midpoint of the lifetimes of the units that make up the sample. <b>This means that half of the units will fail before they reach the MTF and half will fail afterward.</b> If the MTF of your H&K P7M8 is 20,000 rounds, there's a 50% chance that your pistol will will still be alive and kicking when you reach that point.
I really don't put much faith in stories about people who seem to have a propensity for making their guns/cars/computers last indefinitely. Please don't expect your G17 to last 500,000+ rounds just because someone else's did. You're as statistically likely to get a lemon as you are to get an indestructible unit like that.
Stoic hit the nail right on the head with regard to the warranty. A consumer can't tell whether the unit he buys is indestructible or a lemon. The warranty is the manufacturer's way of inspiring consumer confidence in a product whose <b>actual</b> lifetime is totally unknown.
BrokenArrow
New member
The HK P7 was designed for the German police pistol trials of the 70s which had a service life requirement of 10,000 rounds. The HK PSP (P7), SIG P225 (P6), Walther (P5) were all approved. The latest std is now 20,000 rounds. Pretty sure the alloy SIGs were approved again.
BHPs were described as "shot to pieces" by 50,000 rounds. Maybe some exageration, but sounds about right for the Mk II models (then again I heard from someone who said he knew of one w over 100K through it). The Mk III improved certain critical dimensions and heat treat to increase service life. The cast frame on the latest Mk III is stronger than some of the older forged steel frames.
Most police depts will require less than 20,000 rounds to be fired in an entire career. The 5000 round service life requirement of the M9/M11 contracts represents 40 yrs under "normal usage rates" (125 rounds per year). Doesn't go far w some units, who back in the good old days, shot as much as 3,000 rounds a week. The SAS shot as much as 5,000 rounds a week (I don't think all of that was through pistols, but a lot of it was).
BHPs were described as "shot to pieces" by 50,000 rounds. Maybe some exageration, but sounds about right for the Mk II models (then again I heard from someone who said he knew of one w over 100K through it). The Mk III improved certain critical dimensions and heat treat to increase service life. The cast frame on the latest Mk III is stronger than some of the older forged steel frames.
Most police depts will require less than 20,000 rounds to be fired in an entire career. The 5000 round service life requirement of the M9/M11 contracts represents 40 yrs under "normal usage rates" (125 rounds per year). Doesn't go far w some units, who back in the good old days, shot as much as 3,000 rounds a week. The SAS shot as much as 5,000 rounds a week (I don't think all of that was through pistols, but a lot of it was).
private_idaho
New member
Scooter - P7's "designed" for 2000 rounds? That seems . . . unlikely . . . for a $1000+ gun. And as to the "average non-competing owner" - well, I don't know what average is, but, while I don't compete, I try to get to the range about once a month. I consider that about minimum to stay in practice enough that I feel confident I can hit what I aim at if I ever need to use the gun. This pattern has had me put over 4000 rounds through two guns (I don't keep a log like some of the folks here, but I buy by the case, with extras here and there, so I have a rough estimate of total numbers.) No flame intended, but I find it hard to believe (and I don't want to believe, frankly) that my P7 is beyond the life-span of its design parameters.
I'm wondering guys about this idea of aluminum frame guns are shorter life thing. I totaly agree about the idea. I just wonder if the aluminum framed beretta jaguar madel 71 .22 that I have will also have a short life. I always thought a .22 would be hard to shoot out... but this gun is an aluminum frame. What do you guys think? For you who don't know what the gun is it is an older almost identical version of the now berreta cheetah only the safety is a cross bolt type and the mag release is what looks like a screw near the bottom of the left grip.
I have worn out several revolvers because they were not great to begin with ( colt lawman and S&W 29 & 41 ) . My colt 1911 has 50000 plus rounds thru it and it is still going strong... but it is really loose . My sig 220 looks great but only has a few thousand thru it. My glock 17 has maybe 6ooo rounds and still looks and shoots like new. My guess is that most of my guns will out live me by 50 years and I am just in my 40's . I take really really good care of guns because they are expensive and they are needed working to protect my family .
BrokenArrow
New member
I know of more than one rental range that has claimed to put over 100,000 rounds through their alloy framed Ruger P series autos.