What if...

A

ArmySon

Staff Alumnus
Lets say the reverbial excrection hits the fan. Gun owners across the nation revolt. Those of you pro RKBA LEO, military personnel, etc on this board, what would you do if big brother asks you to "put down" the revolts?

As a former army infantry soldier, no way in hell I could gun down fellow Americans. I'd have to go AWOL.

[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited October 03, 2000).]
 
I'd keep a VERY low profile, and temporarily hide/stash my more important firearms/ammo, until after the initial sweeps were over.

And I'd do NOTHING to help an out of control gov't.

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"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H.L. Mencken
 
Like you Son since I am now retired and no longer an officer I will never have to face that decision. However I can say in all honesty had it happened while I was working I would have done my job. The job I was sworn to do that is...which was to serve and protect the citizens and up hold the constitution of the United States of America. In that scenario the most dangerous thing an officer could do would be to disarm the law abiding citizens in his or her balywick. Ditto for their protection. Obviously in that situation I nor any other officer could afford the protection we could give during normal times. Taking their guns would also violate the constitution.
So if I were told to take the peoples guns I would insure my direct supervisors that I was going to hit the streets and do my job to the best of my ability. Serve and protect the citizens and support the constitution.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
I guess at that point I have to take some comfort in that "lawful order" clause of my oath. Of course they'd courts-martial me debating my interpretation, I'm sure, but I can't very well disarm U.S. citizens from confinement, now can I?

I hope this November election isn't another where I vote, go home to watch the polls, then go to bed early in disgust. It was said at my last base that folks in the dorms and housing all went to bed early that night...
 
Funny how no one says they voted for Klinton the second time around, but he got in somehow?

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Dead [Black Ops]
 
I hope and pray that day never arrives my friends. As A federal Officer of the courts I can say I would never turn my weapons on a law-abiding citizen of this or any country. I would hand in my credentials first and join the ranks of the outlaws and take my place among my fellow outlaws.


Fish
 
After Ruby Ridge and Waco I believe your answers are b.s. How any man with honor could still serve the Amerikan Gestapo is beyond me. Has but one federal officer stood up to arrest one corrupt judge? The Waco whitewash is obscene and the presiding judge should be in irons along with the perps. Lon Horiuci should be long ago hung in a public place for the murders at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Could someone show me the constitutional grounds for a federal police state? Turn in your badge and get a real job if your serious about that "oath"...henry
 
Henry, I and I'm sure most everyone here shares you frustration with the current state of affairs in this country with our court system in specific and our political machine as a whole. However, even understanding and relating to that frustarion as I do that still does not excuse you unwarranted criticism of your fellow board members and partiots. The suggestion that pro-constitution members of law enforcement (and military is that was your intention also) resign from their commissions based on principle is naive at best and without applied logic....to put it politely.
Do you believe for a moment that if all freedom loving, constitutionally aware police officers and military personel removing themselves from their postitions will simply leave vacancies in those rolls. On the contrary. Those people will be replaced by those that may or may not be as sympathetic to the rights of Americans guaranteed by the constitution. After giving that some serious consideration I think you will agree that we had all better hope to Hell that those people never resign on principle. Doing so would leave only those that would deny your freedoms in the postition to enforce the laws.



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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
The only thing I can add to 'Slinger's comment is-

Henry, you need to learn to reign in your temper. I was protesting a MMM rally here in Dallas Sunday night, and one of the other protesters was also quite the hothead. I must say, he certainly didn't score any points for our side that night. Neither will you, if you don't cool it.

Besides, it's bad form to rail against a fellow TFLer like that...

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Only in America, we're slaves to be free
Only in America we kill the unborn to make ends meet
Only in America sexuality is democracy
Only in America we stamp our god "In God We Trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song
In America
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Jedi Oomodo and Darthmaum's Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy
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If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP!

You are unwise to lower your defenses!
-Darth Vader, to Luke Skywalker in the throne room of Death Star II
 
We know of the abuses of power that have happened, but do we know of what abuses have been prevented by the good folks in LE? How many other Wacos didn't happen because some good Feds said, "No, thats stupid." If all of the pro-constitution people where to leave, then we would be screwed beyond all comprehension.

Law enforcement is an organization like any other. Organizations are made up of people. The character of the people determines the character of the organization.
 
Correia,
Very good point, sir! ;)
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All,

Let's remember we have the ballot box, the jury box, and non-violent civil disobedience to use before violence should even be considered.

Until ALL other avenues of redress and correction are exhausted, violence is illegal, unnecessary, and best left to other bulletin boards.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
While he may have been a bit perturbed, Henry does have a point. I've heard many LEOs and feds talk with disgust about what their gov't and their agency is contemplating or ordering them to do, yet none have done anything about it. How many FBI agents have resigned in protest after seeing the Bureau turned into a secret police? None. How many ATF agents have done the same? None. How many cops have thrown their shields down in public and declared they would no longer enforce unconstitutional laws? None. Many in the military are leaving the service in protest over what the gov't is doing to them and using them to do, yet no one in law enforcement.

Let me be the first to declare that I put my money where my mouth is. I went to law school with the full intention of joining the Bureau. After Ruby Ridge and Waco, I said forget it and I've spoken out against their abuses at every opportunity.

Next time anyone is asked to perform a duty that is potentially illegal, unconstitutional, or a violation of the public trust (maybe keeping your mouth shut about abuses, fixing a ticket, doing a little racial profiling, arresting someone for Breathing While Black, Hispanic, etc., even speeding in a police vehicle when there isn't an emergency) ask yourself when exactly your rightous indignation and desire to obey the Constitution and uphold your oath is going to kick in.

For the record, I'm not referring to anyone in particular nor do I believe that anyone (LEO or otherwise) on this board would commit illegal acts. But please, don't tell me that cops who keep silent after watching a suspect be beaten will do jack crap to protect my rights, or obey their oath to the Constitition. I don't buy that for a minute.



[This message has been edited by buzz_knox (edited October 04, 2000).]
 
Henry, if all the "good men" leave the Gestapo, then only turds will be left, and they will be happy to pull the trigger for big brother. As long as a few good men still are within the system, the system has some built in checks and balances. Once they are out, the turds will rule. How would you like to be in a toilet with the govt's hand on the flush lever??? Jes a thot... :)

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Let me share this story, I read it years ago, so forgive me if I make any mistakes.

Perhaps this isn't the best example, because its not America. But remember the coup that toppled Gorbachav? Soviet hardliners decided that they wanted to return to the good old days, they didn't care for the whole peristroika (sp?) thing.

Thats when Boris Yeltsin and his people set up camp, and all the protestors showed up and surrounded the building. The hardliners called in a contingent of KGB Alpha spec-ops types. Their mission was to go in, dressed as civillians and kill Yeltsin and a bunch of his supporters. While being given their orders, one of the Alpha guys asked, "Who is giving these orders?" He was told that the orders where from the government. His response "Which government." Then he and his men walked out. The coup failed soon after.

History could have taken a much different course if those men had done what they were told.

I'm not defending Yeltsin, I think the man was a fool. I'm just trying to illustrate that individuals in positions of authority can make a difference.
 
buzz, I admire your commitment in not excepting the job with the feds due to your own principles. However, let me also say that a big part of of me wishes that you would have taken the position with them.
The point that Corriea and I are tryng to make is that there are probably more examples then we all know of officers...on both a local and federal level questioning orders. Those questions and that in put may well have prevented more crisis like Ruby Ridge and Waco. I can tell you that I myself was known to question more than a few orders or more specifically tactics. Many of those concerns resulted in a more favorable approach to the situation and/or, in some rare cases, changes department policy.
All of us here know that an individual officer does not have the authority to issue warrants or arrest judges because of constitutional violations. Imagine the chaos that would ensue if they did or attempted such acts.
I do not agree with many of the actions of contemporary law enforcement in America, particulally on a federal level. Sadly, as new, younger officers come on the job there are fewer and fewer that appreciate the importance of the constitution and the freedoms that it guarantees us. That is all the more reason that is important that freedom loving Americans in the position to enforce the laws remain in those vocations. The absolute last thing I would ever wish to see would be those officers throwing their badges in the street. If they did we would be left with only those that follow orders without question and have no regards to citizens rights or the constitution.

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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Gunslinger, I thought about trying to change the system from within. Then, I realized that it doesn't work. Think a bunch of good people could have altered the course of the Gestapo, the NKVD, the KGB? Nope. They would have been neutralized or terminated. The same thing goes on today. Cop speaks out on 2nd Amendment issues in public, he loses his job. Cop speaks out in private, he gets put on the graveyard shift in the worst neighborhood, or gets shuffled out the door.

Take a look at departments that have cleaned up their act within the last 20 years or so. How many did it voluntarilly? I'd be surprised if a single one did. How many did it from within? Same. How many did it kicking and screaming after outside groups filed suit? That's where you get it.

If you want to change the system from within, you have to be the one in charge or someone like you. Only then will you be safe enough to try.
 
I guess the most interesting twist is that all the LEO's out there will not have to confiscate the privately owned weapons of the Law Abiding Americans. Those terms will be made mutually exclusive. There will simply be a law passed stating that privately owned weapons are illegal. Oh sure, you can keep your guns at the local National Guard Armory, but not at home.
When they do this, will you enforce the law? When they produce evidence saying that the guy on 12345 Elm Street is a heavily armed child-molester (he was 21 when he married his 18 year old wife) who has made veiled threats against the lives of cops (what you see in previous posts), will you act against him?
I would gander that the agents in the BATF thought they were "just doing their jobs" at Waco. I would gander that the US Marshalls office, and the FBI were just "serving a warrant" when they shot Sammy Weaver and his dog. I would gander that the FBI sniper Lon Horiucci thought that he was "just following orders" to take down a heavily armed right-wing fanatic or "just taking out the garbage" when he shot his wife (Vicky). Most attrocities are committed because the perps have been made to believe that the victims are evil. Any mention of the good is ommitted when describing these "fanatics." I remember going into Iraq, and seeing a progressive country where women could persue a college education, and participate in almost all job fields. Iraq was probably one of the most free Arab countries going at the time. Did you folks sitting in your living room see this? Nope, the government and press didn't think you needed to hear this, and so you didn't. You only heard what they wanted you to hear, and we "just did our jobs."
 
well i am not military or LEO but i talked to a military LEO last month i think it was.
and what he would do in the exact situation came up, he said that as an MP he probably would not be ordered to do such things, but if he were he would do them without second thought, because it was his duty, and if the government said these people needed to be removed that they did need to be removed because they would be threats to the "freedom" and "security" of the nation, and its government.

when he told me this it flabbergasted me that anyone is his position would have such skewed veiws of freedom and security.
i really could have spit in his face, it was just so tempting.
he saw that he had upset me greatly when i started clenching my fists and grinding my teeth.
the look i was giving him wasnt helping matters much either.

some people are alive simply because it is illegal to kill them.
needs to be put down for his own damn good.
or at least locked far away from everyone else.

i hope this isnt the majority opinion of people in his place.

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while u are burying your head in the sand i will be out doing something about the problem, excuse me if i tramp upon your skull.

[This message has been edited by guerilla1138 (edited October 05, 2000).]
 
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