What if Military and LE still used revolvers?
- Thread starter mellow_c
- Start date
lee n. field
New member
Something new. Something modular, a 6 shot service pistol size .357 or .45 ACP LCP with an adjustable or replaceable grip frame. Lots of plastic, to make it more economical to manufacture.
What if...?
It takes quite an imagination to devise this question, no less an answer but here goes.
So there would need to be some tradeoff of round count, cartridge effectiveness, fitting a broad range of hand sizes, weight (in that our soldiers are overburdened as is), rails for lasers or optics and overall quality.
My choice would be the Smith and Wesson Performance Center Model M&P R8 (a gun that is still in production)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...75660_775655_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
Made of Scandium alloy for lighter weight
Stretched to carry eight rounds
It's got a 5" barrel for reasonable accuracy
Rail on bottom for lasers or light
Shoots .357/.38 for power when needed
The frame might be a bit large (N Frame)
Plus it's flat black. A more tacti-cool revolver has never been made. Well, except for one (below):
Alternatively, there's the
The Smith and Wesson Performance Center Model 627 V-Comp (also in production)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...75660_775655_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
No Scandium and a full lower lug with compensator so it's pretty heavy
Stretched to carry eight rounds
It's got a 5" barrel and compensator for accuracy and repeatability
No rails though
Shoots .357/.38 for power when needed
The frame might be a bit large (also an N Frame) but I own one and have average or less hands.
And between the flat black and that V Comp look it IS the most tacti-cool revolver made.
B
It takes quite an imagination to devise this question, no less an answer but here goes.
So there would need to be some tradeoff of round count, cartridge effectiveness, fitting a broad range of hand sizes, weight (in that our soldiers are overburdened as is), rails for lasers or optics and overall quality.
My choice would be the Smith and Wesson Performance Center Model M&P R8 (a gun that is still in production)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...75660_775655_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
Made of Scandium alloy for lighter weight
Stretched to carry eight rounds
It's got a 5" barrel for reasonable accuracy
Rail on bottom for lasers or light
Shoots .357/.38 for power when needed
The frame might be a bit large (N Frame)
Plus it's flat black. A more tacti-cool revolver has never been made. Well, except for one (below):
Alternatively, there's the
The Smith and Wesson Performance Center Model 627 V-Comp (also in production)
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...75660_775655_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
No Scandium and a full lower lug with compensator so it's pretty heavy
Stretched to carry eight rounds
It's got a 5" barrel and compensator for accuracy and repeatability
No rails though
Shoots .357/.38 for power when needed
The frame might be a bit large (also an N Frame) but I own one and have average or less hands.
And between the flat black and that V Comp look it IS the most tacti-cool revolver made.
B
Interesting choice of calibers for revolvers, but if the U.S. Army had not decided to adopt an auto pistol, there probably would have been no .45 ACP or .40 S&W. It is quite possible that the U.K. would also have continued with revolvers, and the auto pistol would have been strictly a continental European and possibly Japanese development.
But that, while interesting speculation, was just not going to happen. The auto pistol has so many advantages for military use that there was no way any major power would stick with the revolver for long.
Jim
But that, while interesting speculation, was just not going to happen. The auto pistol has so many advantages for military use that there was no way any major power would stick with the revolver for long.
Jim
I know a Dallas PD internal affairs investigator. When he goes to an Officer in involved shooting, the first question he asks is "how many rounds did the Officer fire?"
If its 2-3 rounds, generally it's an older Officer who is still carrying a revolver (yes, Dallas still has a few) or, an older Officer that still has the trigger discipline of carrying a revolver even though he is now carrying an auto.
If its 10-12-15 etc, he generally deduces that its a younger Officer that started with and carries an auto. And, is generally right.
No hard science, just an observation.
If its 2-3 rounds, generally it's an older Officer who is still carrying a revolver (yes, Dallas still has a few) or, an older Officer that still has the trigger discipline of carrying a revolver even though he is now carrying an auto.
If its 10-12-15 etc, he generally deduces that its a younger Officer that started with and carries an auto. And, is generally right.
No hard science, just an observation.
Dragline45
New member
I was going to say the S&W 627 due to the 8 shot cylinder and the extra capacity, but it's so damn big, so I would say a S&W 19 due to the smaller size. Capacity isn't really a huge issue with military sidearms IMO unless you are special op's. I mean, how many soldiers actually carry a sidearm anyways? I always thought they were reserved for officers and higher ups unless you served in the tank division, were an MP, or some other role like a sniper or machine gunner.
Police training needs to address that issue better than some departments have done. The number of rounds could be a very big factor in an investigation and/or legal action against the officer, the department, or both. While anti-gun mayor Bloomberg's NYPD seems to tolerate shooting unarmed people 30 or 40 times, many towns would not accept that as normal police conduct and the officer would, at the least, be removed from the force.
Jim
Jim
Military? I believe the Geneva convention prohibits "expanding ammo" so one of the revolver benefits of not being ammo picky would be a lot more moot. Six rounds of hardball? No thanks. The auto loading and higher capacity mags are a marriage made in heaven with hardball ammo requirements. That being said, I believe ruger was coming in strong for Leo use when the switch to auto loaders was being made. The ruger gp100 with remington 125 sjhp .357 magnum or a hot .38 would be my choice.
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Without claiming any sort of expertise, and ignoring the fact that auto-loaders do seem better suited to the role of combat sidearm, I'd agree with the 4" GP100/686 sentiment.
Or, in a much more interesting world, a Jim March Special.
Or, in a much more interesting world, a Jim March Special.
I absolutely agree. I was a LE Firearms Instructor for 25 years. Most of that time was with the S&W model 10 and later the 65. I never felt under gunned and I see no reason why they would not still be just fine for any agency. The last pistol used was a Glock 17 when I retired.
Standards kept going down. When we first started, we were doing some shooting at B-27s @ 50 yards. I was competing in pistol silhouette at that time which was really getting popular and the CLOSEST target was 50 yards so that seemed easy to hit that big old target. When I left government service, the furthermost distance was 15 yards for qualification and people struggled.
To end on a positive note, the last NRA LE course I attended required all rounds to be on paper during qualification. While they could be outside the scoring rings, you had to account for every shot. You have one shot off paper, you fail. I think that is right and every agency would be doing the same if I were King for a day. JMHO and YMMV
SPEMack618
New member
I have a couple of tidbits to add.
The one Deputy who was ever involved in a gunfight in my home county carries a Model 13 loaded with the "FBI Load" .38 Spl rounds.
He also used it rather effectively against the meth head he was up against.
Pops carried a Model 15 though Gulf War I.
I've heard, nothing substantial though, that Navy SEALs have in times past, carried the S&W Model 66.
If I were to pick a revovler to carry into combat, I'd go with Bill Jordan, and want to carry a Model 19, four inch, loaded with .357 LSWCHP.
The one Deputy who was ever involved in a gunfight in my home county carries a Model 13 loaded with the "FBI Load" .38 Spl rounds.
He also used it rather effectively against the meth head he was up against.
Pops carried a Model 15 though Gulf War I.
I've heard, nothing substantial though, that Navy SEALs have in times past, carried the S&W Model 66.
If I were to pick a revovler to carry into combat, I'd go with Bill Jordan, and want to carry a Model 19, four inch, loaded with .357 LSWCHP.
micromontenegro
New member
The French Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale, which has done some outstanding anti terrorism operations, still uses the Manurhin mr 73 revolver as its precision handgun.
Revolvers....
Military revolvers have been in the US armed forces longer than some may have thought.
When I was on active duty(MPs, 1989-1993), S&W model 10 snubs(.38spl) & J frame Model 36 Chief's in .38spl were not uncommon with MPI(Military Police Investigators) or MI agents.
A K9 Sgt told me the US Army MP Center & School wanted all "dog handlers" to use S&W Model 10 4" barrel .38spl revolvers.
He said the senior NCOs & officers thought the K9 handlers needed one hand to shoot/use the sidearm & one hand for the working dog.
The US Army was also using older S&W and Ruger .38spl revolvers for female MPs.
FWIW; both male & female soldiers were using the M9 9mmNATO & then the new M11(SIG Sauer P228).
In the mid 1970s, in the final phase of the SE Asia conflict, many USAF "air police" & SPs had S&W or Ruger revolvers.
Richard Marcinko, www.DickMarcinko.com the US Navy SEAL officer who started SEAL Team 06 & later Red Cell, said the spec war units got Smith & Wesson model 66 .357magnums to use in water-borne ops & coastal missions. Marcinko wrote that the contract .357magnum revolvers were covered with black oxide to reduce the glare.
As for a more modern revolver as a serious military sidearm, Id opt for the S&W Model 27 M8 format. It has a 1913 rail and a 5" barrel.
This weapon is issued to the NYPD's elite ESU(emergency services unit).
It has a 8 round cylinder & a N frame so it's not for everyone.
The S&W .45acp revolver in the same format as the M8 isn't bad. I think it's a 6 shot revolver & takes moon clips but I'm not sure.
Clyde
Military revolvers have been in the US armed forces longer than some may have thought.
When I was on active duty(MPs, 1989-1993), S&W model 10 snubs(.38spl) & J frame Model 36 Chief's in .38spl were not uncommon with MPI(Military Police Investigators) or MI agents.
A K9 Sgt told me the US Army MP Center & School wanted all "dog handlers" to use S&W Model 10 4" barrel .38spl revolvers.
He said the senior NCOs & officers thought the K9 handlers needed one hand to shoot/use the sidearm & one hand for the working dog.
The US Army was also using older S&W and Ruger .38spl revolvers for female MPs.
FWIW; both male & female soldiers were using the M9 9mmNATO & then the new M11(SIG Sauer P228).
In the mid 1970s, in the final phase of the SE Asia conflict, many USAF "air police" & SPs had S&W or Ruger revolvers.
Richard Marcinko, www.DickMarcinko.com the US Navy SEAL officer who started SEAL Team 06 & later Red Cell, said the spec war units got Smith & Wesson model 66 .357magnums to use in water-borne ops & coastal missions. Marcinko wrote that the contract .357magnum revolvers were covered with black oxide to reduce the glare.
As for a more modern revolver as a serious military sidearm, Id opt for the S&W Model 27 M8 format. It has a 1913 rail and a 5" barrel.
This weapon is issued to the NYPD's elite ESU(emergency services unit).
It has a 8 round cylinder & a N frame so it's not for everyone.
The S&W .45acp revolver in the same format as the M8 isn't bad. I think it's a 6 shot revolver & takes moon clips but I'm not sure.
Clyde
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