What I learned about fighting rifles playing paintball...

On the "do they make paintball guns that look like the real things" question.. I once saw a CAR-15 paintball gun at a shop down in San Jose, CA. Looked and hefted just like the real thing, and I'd bet that the collapsable stock, handguards, grip, and a few other common parts ARE the real thing.

I had a buddy who went to the naval academy tell me he used the same thing in training, from what he said, they worked pretty well. Of course, they also cost almost as much as a real AR ($650, as I recall).

-K
 
Paintball gives you a stark lesson in reality.

A couple other things that go into this:

You have to KNOW your weapon... If it goes down - You have to be able to get it back up and running FAST.

Stay Low.

Think before you move.

Move a lot.

Move FAST.

Stay Low.

Keep your eyes open.

Keep your ears open... Your ears work 360*.

Bring plenty of ammo.

Think.

It's not the gun but the gunner.

I played - I had a team just this summer. I was running a Cocker that I customized from stock into a fantastic marker. Totally reliable and very accurate. And very fast too. We had a Shocker 4X4 on the team, another Cocker, an Automag, and a "Timmy".
The Timmy rocked - if your wanting a computerized wondergun, the Timmy is the way to go. Good value and a rock solid performer even if it is a little porkish on the air consumption.

Next year, what marker will I use? Another Cocker. :D Cockers Rock!
 
I think paintball is a great teaching tool. And I agree with all of the above points.

But everytime I paintball it makes me wish I had my FAL or something else with some range. :) There have been several times where I have seen some of the people on the other team moving around well out of paint range. Also in paintball we can hide behind bushes that will break a ball but wouldn't even slow a bullet, just keep that in mind if you are ever doing the real thing. :D

I love paintball. I didn't get to do it at all this year, maybe next year. I did it a lot when I was in college. Thats what I get for hanging out with the guys who worked at the paintball store.
 
Has anyone used the Airsofts that look like Glocks? I am looking for a GOOD airsoft that fits and functions like a Glock 17, for indoor practice.

Deaf
 
My Timmy rocked.With it's Delrin bolt and warp feed it threw paint at 14bps.Just enough to make those on the receiving end wet their pants.Boy, all this talk is making me wish I never got out of the game :( .Last year some friends of mine chipped in to buy their on Sup'Air field just after I sold my gun.How convenient.
 
What's A Timmy

Nickname for the Bob Long Intimidator.An electronic paintball marker with LCD display,computer chip,anti-chop eye that prevents ball chops.Popular with tournement players.Trigger pull is compared to that of a mouse click.:D
 
I wanted to mention something regarding a frequent criticism of paintball in terms of using bushes for cover. People will say that makes it unrealistic. Yes, you can use bushes, plants, thin plywood as cover. However, in my mind, it has been burned into my sole the need for cover. I fully understand that in a real situation, I need to chose cover based on what is shooting at me. Most people who train with firearms will know the difference and compensate.

I actually find the opposite to be true. Cover is the first thing on my mind because of my paintball experience. I knew intellectually cover was important. However, paintball allows me to experience the mistake of not using it. In real life, I will choose real cover. Not plants.
 
These people make full-auto paintguns with magazines that change like real gun, not those silly hoppers.

http://www.adtacsys.com/

600 bpm, 20-60+ round magazines, CO2 or air, and real gun styling.

Oh, did I mention the real gun prices? :(

These are the same ones used by LAPD and other police/military agencies for their NLW programs.

Does airgun really hurt? I'd think something like a 1/4 gram plastic ball couldn't even be felt through clothing like BDUs. Can it?
 
Dave3006,

Great post.

I have a few comments/questions:

When I saw #4 Penetration, I thought of a quote I recently saw,(I can't remember where) credited to Charles Askins, who stated something like, "This cartridge is meant for combat!?" when he saw the penetration results of a test on 5.56mm(223) ammunition on wood baffles. He was a big believer in a penetrating rifle cartridge.
Shouldn't the opinion of BTDTs like him and mean something?

Like T. Stahl, I was thinking G3(actually HK91) or FAL when I saw your list. You mention mag capacity. But, you don't mention rate of fire.

SO, I then thought Scout-type Rifle. Would a Scout-type Rifle with a 10(Steyr or Enfield) or 20(Robar Conversion QR2) suffice? The reason I ask is you can put together a Scout on an Enfield one hell of a lot cheaper than you can pick up an FAL or a HK91.
And that means alot. Would a set up like that be competitive?

Dave
 
Would a bolt gun be competitive? A lot of the real scary guys on the paintball field are the old timers with pump guns and very limited ammo capacity. They have been playing a long time and are good. My opinion, is that they would be even better with a semi auto. When I think about how things work on the field, semi auto is almost manditory for close in, multiple opponent situations.

Regarding penetration, think about a SHTF situation, the minute the shooting starts people will scramble to hide behind things (Toyotas, fences, houses). The rifle that defeats cover best will help you win. Since almost all of us can't own a real assault weapon, a true full sized battle round makes more sense. It will penetrate better than an intermediate cartridge. My choice for the perfect fighting rifle is my M1 Garand. It is accurate. It penetrates cover. And, I can reload it fast. Capacity is not a big deal to me. That is what I think will work for me. Others might have a different choice.

If I could have a selectable fire real assault weapon, I might have a different opinion.
 
In airsoft you can buy "fairly" realistically sized mags. They usually hold a few too many on the standard models though (like 23 on a glock 17, 26 in most M9s, etc), with alot of the AEGs especially, they have 150+ round hi-cap mags you can buy. The standard AEG mags that come with the guns are around 50 though. Which is close enough to be fun. With all the guys I play with we just all agreed to only buy standard capacity mags and skip the cheapass hi-caps...

A buddy of mine has an electric MP5 that he uses, and I use his Glock 18C (semi or full auto) currently (getting my own here shortly). A couple other guys we play with have M4A1s and one has an AUG. All are really sweet.

The Glock is what I use all the time though. It's awesome. It is majorly fun to use, and is pretty darn accurate, especially for indoor stuff. It's also badass to rip off shots with the slide functioning, providing a little recoil (albeit too little), and locking back on the last round. Slap a fresh mag in and hit the mag release just like the real deal. Way better than paintball.

It's also cheaper. You can get 3500 pellets for $10-$15 bux, and the gas for the gas guns is really cheap as well (you can just PC duster keyboard gas with an adapter for the nozzle). You fill the mag with gas (has basically a little refillable C02 cart in it), and then load it with pellets and you're good to go. No bulky C02 tank like with paintball. As you reload to a fresh mag you've got a full charge of air again. No constantly running to the paintball store to fill up your tank there either. You do the filling where ever you are with a simple aeresol-type can.

It's majorly fun. But don't confuse the cheap spring gun (you have to cock em for every shot) crap that you've likely seen at gun shows and for cheap online. You want the gas pistols or AEG rifles... I'm planning to pick up either a Glock 18C for myself or a Beretta M9 variant (leaning toward the M9 since it will mimick my real Taurus 92AF pretty closely, should be good training...) Both the models I'm looking at are made by KSC (same as the Glock I use all the time) and can be had for around $100-$150 with one mag. Extra mags are around $25 a pop. If you want a nice electric MP5 or M4 or something, those can be had for around $300.

To give you an idea of the power, they will usually shoot into one side of a coke can at close range but not go through. There are spring, gas, and battery/motor upgrades you can do to increase power though BTW. You can actually pump the AEGs up to around 450+ fps. That would do some damage I would think, lol.

For you snipers, there are also fairly hi-powered "sniper" rifle airsofts, like the PSG and such. Most need to be upgraded to really be able to shoot long range with.

Here's a quick video of the Glock 18c (KWA brand, rebadged KSC) shooting a couple bursts.

2mb file http://www.airsoftplayers.com/g18c/g18c_small.mov

12mb file http://www.airsoftplayers.com/g18c/g18c_large.mov

Here's a small one of a mag change and couple shots from a M92F: http://www.zerooneairsoft.com/M92F Blk Demo.wmv

This page here has alot of skirmish videos, some don't work. No idea what language that is: http://members.fortunecity.es/matadoresairsoft/

Here's a few more skirmish videos, short for their size though. http://www.users.qwest.net/~schafferian/
 
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I've been thinking about this Post for the last few months but never got around to posting.

What you all have said is exactly what I learned. I was let down by the innaccuracy and the missed opportunities because of the weapons range. Of the 7 Games I played I was shot 2 times "IN THE FOOT" when I hid behind trees. I never realised when your 6'2" you have to pull your feet in with you when hiding behind a tree.

The guys with the more accurate guns made the difference on my Team. You could hear the difference in their guns and they had the most kills.

Having good Communication is something we all learned the first game we played. I kept yelling threw my mask for my friend to watch his left and he thought I was saying "GO LEFT". A nice Radio and hand signals would have helped us.

Knowing how to pick out Defensive positions and getting into position quickly sometimes decided who won.

Laying down Surpressing fire works? I learned how to use my gun like a broom and eventually pin the BG down and grease him.

I also learned what Camoflauge does when your in Shadowy environments.
I couldn't tell where enemy fire was coming from at times.

Can I also brag and say that the last game, after learning all these lessons, I killed 9 out of 15 after I broke threw the enemy lines and none of them knew it. And proceeded to shoot everyone in the back until someone realised some Sneaky @#$!$%@ just killed most of his team:D Two of them were girls:rolleyes:

P.S. There were several incedents of Friendly Fire too.
 
This subject just happens to be a subject I'm pretty familiar with! I have designed my own paintball marker. We are still testing it, but I've also designed a new style of play.

First off, the gun, 4 moving parts, select fire, ROF of 1300-1500 rounds per minute. I still have heat issues with it as you might suspect. I will sell the manufacturing rights to whomever offers me the most for it once I solve this heat issue. Some sort of governor may be required..... Otherwise it's totally consistant, puts out all rounds at 275fps or so,with a max variance of 3 fps either way. If you really want, you can put it right up to 295 or so and be within the safety limit, and it will stay there, no real need to rechrono it, even though we do anyway because that's just good habit. The nice thing is though, with that consistant velocity, and the design of the gun, it fires about as accurately and as far as most pumps. Anyhow, as soon as I get the heat issue worked out, I will patent it and then you guys will get a look at it, but until then it's super secret :)

Anyway, the new gameplay style is to have each squad using this gun with spring-loaded tube mags which hold 20-30 rounds. This teaches incredible fire discipline, because up to 1500 rounds per minute can eat up ammo very fast, so it's tempting to spray and pray. You literally can just "catch" someone with 10 rounds in a burst, but if you miss them, you gotta reload, and the way we have it configured right now, you reload it a lot like an AK. One person in the squad sometimes uses one with a full 200 round powerfeed hopper, he becomes the squad machinegunner. Also, sometiems we use water balloons with a bit of food coloring in the water to simulate grenades, but it's not a perfect system.

As for Airsoft..... Airsoft has a lot of plusses and minuses. The plusses have been pretty clearly spelled out in this thread. The minuses are that A) the BBs are not environmentally friendly, paintballs are. B) The BBs do not handle wind well at all compared to paintballs, think .22LR versus 50 BMG at 1000 yards. C) BBs do not penetrate cover at all, not bushes, not brush piled around bunker windows, and not guille suits(good luck even knowing you were hit in one of those) D) BBs have less mass, they do not perform out to the same distances that .68 cal paintballs do.

Airsoft is great training on some levels for handling realistic weapons and fighting in close quarters with them, but paintball is more realistic in a great deal of other ways. The main way paintball is less realistic is the stupid culture within the community of demilitarization. A lot of paintballers do not want to be associated with cammo-wearing recball players. They don't want anything to do with the military. I loathe this attitude, and it's a big reason I only play with my friends/testers, and don't go to the nearby field.

Things I have learned from paintball:

Towers in bases are not effective. The enemy knows right where you are, and they take full advantage of that fact. The rules change some if you have a team roaming around the base keeping the enemy too disorganized to deal with your position....

Bunkers are not effective without a really good clear fire zone surrounding them.

Hiding in trees is a bad way to engage an enemy. If you hide in a tree, stay really well hidden, and have your friends engage them on the ground, and then in the chaos, put rounds in their backs.

Penetration matters more than accuracy. As stated above, I would give a lot to have my paintballs magically able to penetrate heavy cover like real bullets do. Part of why I prefer guns like the FAL, or the AK-47 over the AR-15 or the AK-74 is my experience in paintball. I want a gun that will go through what he's hiding behind. My chances of actually catching him in the open are not good, unless maybe I'm in a desert....

Sound makes a big difference! If your enemy can hear you, they can track you. You can use this to your advantage if you're smart about it.

Ruses are good, but don't overuse them. Use them only enough to keep your enemy worried about you using them. Chaos is your friend when it's dealt the way you want it to be.

Aimed fire has some advantages over spray and pray, but aimed spray beats either.

Explosives are often more valuable than your gun, but without your gun, getting into a position to use your explosives is hard. Use the gun to pin them down, use the explosives to take them out. Works fairly well, but it has drawbacks if they are doing it too....

As a rule of thumb, if the enemy begins to imitate you, change how you play.
 
You guys bring up a lot of good points. Some other things paintball can teach you about is ammo and equipment selection.
Not all types of paintballs work the same in any given gun. And they perform differently depending on temperature, and the terrain. If you don't find out which paint your gun fires best before the match, it may be working more like a squirt gun right about the time you really need it.
As for temperature and terrain. When its cold out, the polar balls work great, try them in warm weather and your not going to have them break too consistently. Same as choosing the right type of bullet to effectively stop your enemy in real battle. Some paint breaks really easily, not what you want out in the woods with a bunch of brush. That goes back to the penetrating factor of bullets. Are they going to fail and break apart as they hit brush or other cover? Do they need to penetrate cover, or just go through clear space and do lots of damage when they hit?

Then theres all the accessories you carry with you. I don't always take extra ammo with me, or a barrel squeegee or anything. I take only what I think I'll need for the given match. If its raining or cold, I'll probably take the squeegee to clean the barrel out if needed. But its just something extra to worry about if the conditions aren't there for balls to be breaking in the barrel alot.
For ammo, will I be hiding or hunting? Do I need to make select shots for the kill, or do I just need to pin people down as my team moves in? Trying to carry 5 or 6 hundred extra rounds is just going to slow you down if you don't need them. And they'll probably be somewhat beat up and more likely to fail on you later on in a different game if you rattle them in the speed loader on your belt all day long.

paintball rules:cool:
 
Another thing I learned is I DON"T WASTE AMMO. I guess from all of my Bench shooting I ended up throwing ammo over to my friends after the second game because they were out of paintballs. I started out with 600rds and I lasted 5 games and had about 20 kills total.
 
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