What has apparently been left out of the stopping power, caliber vs. caliber debate

S

sks

New member
Of all the debates we have here on TFL in regards to what caliber is superior to any other and why, there seems to be a point that hasn't been touched on. Or if it has it's not mentioned with much frecuency as I don't recall it here in quite a while.

Basically, most shootouts occur within distances of 20 feet or less. This distance is agreed upon by the "slow & heavy", "fast & light", "fast & heavy", etc. or any other school of thought as regards handgun defense. So why are we arguing moot points about flat shooting and loss of ft. lbs. or energy at 25 or 50 yards?

I don't mean to take the fun out of things but isn't it a little silly to debate the effects of .357 mag vs. 45 super at 75 yards? Especially if we're talking self defense. Even FUD's gators will be shot from fairly close range. ;)

How much bullet drop or jump will there be within that distance? What loss in ft. lbs. will we experience in 13 feet? I'm asking in sincerity. Personally I don't think it will amount to a hill of beans. Certainly not enough for a perp to tell the difference and then file a report on it.

If most of you are like me, our shot placement begins to suffer out at the 25 to 50 yard range. Not with a benchrest or standing in the perfect weaver stance but just off hand shooting like you will face in a self defense situation. Or trying to one hand some shots into the black at 25 yards. It's harder than it sounds.

Having said that, I guess this will end the debate for all time. :D
 
I agree but it takes all the fun out of it.There are things that have to be fought about on a steady basis.Things like 9mm vs .357.9mm vs .45acp.How long you can leave a mag loaded and so on.Nothing gets settled but we all have fun at it.As long as no one gets too hostile on a subject its fun.The best thing is the new ideas put out by a lot of new blood.The other is helping people.Isn't that is what it is all about?
I learn everytime on log one here.Sometimes from just reading posts and sometimes from my posting an opinion and I turn out to be proven wrong.
So bottom line have fun,learn and teach.
Bob
By the way I perfer my bullets prexpanded,
45 acp forever.Good start to a discussion!!

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
200Gr corbon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain
 
I no longer engage in potentially inflamatory threads. "All calibers are equal. Whatever works. Visualize world peace. Live simply that others may simply live. Make love; not war.It's shot placement that counts."

I will not succumb to temptation....I will not succumb to temptation.....I will not succumb to temptation.....I will not succumb to temptation.....One,two,three,four,five,six,
seven,eight,nine,ten........... :D

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
I made a similar posting on another board some months ago, and was SOUNDLY flogged for it.

People were whining that Gun X couldn't hold under 5" at 25 yards in NRA's testing.

My point was that if you're shooting at 25 yards, you've got a LOT of explaining to do when the smoke clears.

Getting right down to it, anything under 5 or 6" at 25 yards is MOCOM, or Minute Of Center Of Mass, at just about ANY conceivable civilian gunfight range

In other words, MORE than adequate.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
SKS,

Your basic thesis (<20 feet) is correct. I know the FBI used to emphasize three to seven yard.

This said, however, I suspect that -- as a group -- we engage in the endless pursuit of perfection, which drives our continuing discussion of such topics. This is the same reason, for example, why many of use own many seemingly identical handguns (like ten .45 ACPs of various types and manufactures). Here, too, we are seeking perfection and we never quite achieve it.

Regards.
 
The deputy at Columbine HS started engaged the shooters at 70+ yards.

Close encounters virtually demand instant results from your chosen caliber or multiple shots.

Extreme accuracy from your carry gun is not required, but it does give confidence.......

That said, I normally carry a 9mm or 45ACP (but my 'always' is a mouse).

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
I just want a new mouse gun; a little 12 ga. double-derringer (over and under) with a 23/4" barrel. That should end all discussion ;) ; with 4Buck followed by a 1 oz slug. I know... I'll have to get one of those special permit things and a custom holster.



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Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jody Hudson:
I just want a new mouse gun; a little 12 ga. double-derringer (over and under) with a 23/4" barrel. That should end all discussion ;) ; with 4Buck followed by a 1 oz slug. I know... I'll have to get one of those special permit things and a custom holster.
[/quote]

Jody, go ahead and get the pins put in your wrist now. It'll save you and the surgeon trouble down the road. ;)
Eric


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Formerly Puddle Pirate.
Teach a kid to shoot.
It annoys the antis.
 
Not to be an ass, but... Always the but. Anyway, if you only practice for what you will probably encounter, you won't be ready for that situation that is out of the ordinary. Those cops in north Hollywood, were probably more than 25 yards away from the bad guys, had been trained to shoot only at center mass, and they took a lot of casualties. If my 10mm round does better at 100 yards, bet that it will do better at 7 also. If you go into a fight against someone prepared for war, and you are only prepared for the fight, who's going to win?

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"Vote with a Bullet."
 
Claemore70,

I understand your thinking about the need for preparation. However, my point is that we constantly discuss "stopping power" and it is generally in a caliber vs. caliber debate. There is the odd chance that us as civilians will have to shoot someone at 70+ yards but as was stated earlier, you had better be ready to explain why you were shooting someone at that range.

In our day to day encounters if we are ever held up it will not be at long distances. Sure you can prepare to shoot at 100 yards but "MOST" of the world will not hit a moving target at 100 yards with a handgun. Even trained individuals. The handgun was not designed for that purpose. At least not the personal defense handgun. If we want to discuss hunting handguns then that is a horse of a different color.

If the perp is 50 yards or more away, then I've got ample time to run, hide or take cover and let him come to me.

As far as the cops being so far away, the thing that they should have done and finally did was arm themselves with rifles. Which were made to shoot at that range, kill effectively while still maintaining a good bit of their ft. lb. punch and not drop too much. At 100 yards it's a whole lot easier to hit a target with a rifle than with a pistol.

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The best weapon for self defense is the one you have when the need arises!
 
I try to stay out of most "stopping power" threads, since I think the whole premise is pretty silly. If you are carrying quality self defense ammo in 9mm or larger, by far the most important points would be tactics, firearm reliability, and accuracy, not bullet selection. If all the "magic bullet" people were to start talking about the really important, the "stopping power" threads would be swamped by the other topics.
 
Of course I agree that if you have advance notice, always take a rifle to gun fight. However in day to day goings-on, a good, reliable, (and really, as long as it is in the combat handgun caliber range, reliability is the most important factor, IMHO) can always be carried, and will most likely be your only option. What if in your day to day goings-on, you come across a bad-guy with a carbine or rifle (where I live that can certainly happen) A gun that is really only effective at 7 yards, ain't going to do you much good. It doesn't happen often, but a handgun with the right tactics can be used to defeat a rifleman. Certainly better than a .32, or nothing at all. Generally though, I agree with what has been said, and I've got a point, on the top of my head.

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"Vote with a Bullet."
 
Darn, I tried to keep out of this ;) I have to go with shot placement over caliber, cartridge.
Practice the 25yrd and closer stuff. For most of us, if your foe is 50 yrds or greater you should be using some suppressive fire and withdrawing/ finding cover/disengaging, if possible. This is the difference betweeen you and me and possibly a LEO that might have to press an engagement under less than ideal conditions.
 
I believe it was Jeff Cooper who said"If you understand what the real world is like you carry a .44 or a .45. If you don't, well, good luck!"
 
Ok correct me if I am wrong. It has happened before. ;)

To incapacitate a BG quickly you need to get a hit to the brain or spine. Under stressful situations this would be hard to do. No matter how many IDPA or ISPC matches you have been in. Most of us have never had a BG shooting back at us or had to clear a house in the middle of the night. So even though we can get 'em all in the 10 ring at 25 yards at the range most of us do not know what we will do under this kind of pressure. Also how many BG's are going to be out in the open so that we can make sure that we get good shot placement. The other way to incapacitate a perp is to drop his blood pressure. The fastest way to do this is to lose blood. The bigger the hole the faster the blood loss. Shot placement does not have to be as accurate. More room for error.

Although shot placement is vital I think it is used to often as the end to a discussion. I mean if shot placement is all that counts then all we really need is a good accurate .22. One shot through the BG's eye and that is the end of the story.

Make mine a .45! penetration and expansion even if it fails to expand. ;)
 
1911Ford,

First of all, most BGs won't expect you to be armed/able/willing to engage them, remember you're not the enemy (LEO) to them, you're the "prey". If you're lucky enough to survive the initial encounter the odds will move towards your favor.
I can also tell you from real experience that gunshot wounds very often don't bleed much unless you hit a vital artery/organ, especially in an extremity. Blood vessels in extremities tend to constrict and almost completely shut off blood flow for a period of time around a major trauma. Many times you won't even know recieved a flesh wound. Bullets passing thru flesh tend to disrupt the body's ability to transmit nerve signals. If the nerves get cut you won't feel any pain at all.
Lungs are a fairly large target. A lungshot by comparison, will almost always bring down a living thing. It's not going to be an instant drop like a spine or brain shot but it will happen.

This debate can never really be resolved since there are just too many variables involved. Sort of like the "deadly machineguns" If I'm going to be shot at I can only hope the guy doing it is 100yrds away standing up shooting full auto offhand rather than 200 yrds away, prone, with a single shot scoped boltgun.
 
If I recall correctly, the FBI demanded 1.5 inches at 25' from the latest batch of .45 cal purchased. Of course they were for their special operating forces, but obviously someone thinks accuracy is important. The simple truth is that a pistol that shoots that well at 25' will obviously be of surgical value in a close encounter hostage situation where a rifle could not be employed. If I happen to be the hostage, 4-5 inches just doesn't hack it, especially after reading on this forum what lousy shots you LEO's are. ;). ya'll be cool, hear?
 
sks; Semi-auto's are 357 maggie wanna-bee's. The 125 grain full power hollow point is still champ after all these years! Best, J. Parker
 
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