What happens when someone is shot?

B

bestdefense357

New member
I'm throwing this out for discussion because of the comments made by nearly every victim I interviewed for my book, "The Best Defense: True Stories of Intended Victims Who Defended Themselves with a Firearm." Later interviews for the American Guardian column and for my second book confirm the fact that rarely does a perpetrator simply fall over after he's shot by a vicitm.

In so many cases, the victim told me, "I thought when I shot him, he'd slump to the floor, flutter his eyes once or twice, and die." Of course, the people who said this had been watching too much television.

What an assailant does once he's been shot depends on many factors: size of gun, type of bullet, distance from the victim, where he's hit, the level of anger or adrenalin the bad guy has, whether he's on drugs, etc. But in most instances (of those I interviewed), the bad guy simply kept doing what he was doing. If he was beating the victim, he kept beating the victim. If he was shooting at the victim, he kept shooting. If he was lunging toward the victim, he kept lunging toward the victim. In cases in which the assailant was high on crack cocaine (the great majority of the cases), the shots didn't phase him. Usually these guys had to bleed to death in order to stop their attack.

If you have personal stories about this subject, please email me.

Thanks,

Robert

[This message has been edited by bestdefense357 (edited March 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by bestdefense357 (edited March 15, 2000).]
 
The last several shootings I worked were not unordinary. In the first one, the subject, impaired by drugs, was shot in the hand and moving all over the street, he would not stay still but was in pain. The last one, a guy was shot in the knee, he stood there while I interviewed him until EMS took over. Both were shot with a .380, both through and through. Both in pain, but the second subject was calm and collected, wanting to know why he was shot. Both subjects did not bleed alot and to an extent were still mobile. The last stabbing, a bit off the subject, I was at, the subject was calm enough to smoke a cigar while we interviewed him and he was worked on. He was hit in the gut, felt pain, but we held a conversation. Physically these folks were damaged, but their physcological state seemed pretty stable. As for crack cocaine, a subject and three of us fought him after he had an entire can of pepper spray used against him, physically he hurt, but he was determined. He did not want to go to jail, and wanted to get away from us however he could. How did I figure that one out? When he said "you are the only one they sent out here." His background was of drug use and assaults, throw in a long prison record.
 
It would be helpful to us who carry to know what type of round these people were shot with. Was it ball ammunition? A defensive round (Hydra-Shok, etal.)? Does the type of round make a difference in the way the victim responds? Also, would knowledge of how victims respond help resolve the .45 vs 9mm debate?

I carry 9mm Hydra-Shoks. It would be good to know what to expect should I ever have to use them.

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Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other, and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked.
Nehemiah 4:17,18
 
I've been at hundreds of shootings. I am always surprised by reaction. Just a week or so ago the kid next door was shot in the lower chest with a .22. He walked around, bent over like he had gas cramps and very lucid.
I shot a 17 year old in both thighs with a .357 and he ran almost two miles and never broke stride but almost bled to death.
My partner shot a 19 year old in the chest 6 times with a .357 and the jerk still fired back at us 5 times and we had to fight him in the ambulance.
The body produces Endorphines which are 500 times more potent than morphine and when we are hit we are well guarded from pain. In fact, any EMT's here who work in trauma rooms can assure you they crack chests and work on internal organs all the time in ER's Level 1's and often use NO pain killers if they are in a big hurry. That is why they like to have you hurry in to the ER if you break a bone so they can work on it before the Endorphines wear off.
40% of those shot in the heart will live and even with a heart shot you can have a fight on your hands for a full minute. A cop here shot a guy in the chest three times with a 9mm and all three hit the heart. He looked at the cop and said, " is that the best you can do?" He then tipped over and died. The term "stopping" should not be used with handguns. It is a real oxymoron.
I was hit in the knee with a .22 and didn't know it for almost 20 minutes and it had numbed the area of impact.
This is why you don't "double tap" you keep tapping until the problem is taken care of. Shooting any less gets your sorry butt killed in the real world.
 
I was shot with a .22lr as a teenager. The bullet hit the knuckle of my left index finger, fragmented, then entered my left thigh. I immediately felt faint and went into mild shock...but had no pain until the next day. I walked into the ER btw. Not a fun experience.
 
i was shot in the chest when i was 20 or so, at first i didn't know anything had happened. the target was my freind (i think) and i was driving. i heard the shot and felt the "hit" but never felt anything but that until a was a couple of blocks away. then i still felt no pain but the bullet hit my right lung. my friend saw nothing until i started to cough blood, then i drove to the hospital and told them i was shot. the nurse said yeah OK. it was a little funny now but then i was about to panic. i had no blood on my shirt only what i was coughing. when they took me into the emergency room i still felt no pain. the bullet hit the top front edge of my right lung, and i was very lucky. the gun was a 38 and if it was a 357 it would have hit my heart the doctor told me but as it was they didn't have to gut me to get it out they just removed a piece of rib. i never felt any pain until i was out of surgery. btw they never found the ********* who did it.
 
Lister? Your comments aren't what we want to hear or are told but they are 100% right on the money. Reality bites.
 
Got this from an interview with Ann Barry, of Bowling Green, Kentucky, and the detective who investigated the case: Barry was asleep in her home when she heard someone break down her back door. She got out of bed, grabbed her .357 Magnum with Hydroshock bullets ("just like the police in Bowling Green use," she told me), and confronted a burglar. He had a 9mm, and she shot him before he could shoot. At three feet away, she hit him in the lower abdomen.

He then sprayed five or six shots at her, and missed with each shot. Then he turned and ran through the house, out the back door, across her lawn, to a waiting getaway car which got stuck trying to leave the scene. He then ran across the road to a field, where he finally collapsed. Police found him there moaning about how "that woman was just looking to shoot someone."

Most of his colon had been blasted away, as well as part of his intestines, and on kidney. He was still able to go for five to ten minutes.

Robert
 
I have spent much of my employment time in Ireland. I have encountered many poor souls that have been shot for various reasons. A specific joy of some terrorists is shooting the person in both knee caps. Few can walk after this practice and most will suffer severe damaging requiring extensive medical costs and procedures and rehabilitation. Though now very life threatening the cost per knee is estimated in U.S. dollars at about $100,000 in medical repairs. Also most such types do not walk well after the event. A most unpleasant experience.
I also found mention by many in guarded conversation that many IRA types have been shot and needed little or no medical treatment and they have a habit of treating their own. Interesting environment they travel.
 
What little first hand experiance I've had was military and firmly convinced me that the .223 is too light.

The best analogy I've come up with is that handguns have a lot more in common (results wise) with arrows than rifles.

About once every two years one of my IPSC/IDPA buddies will shoot a deer with a handgun. The results are always a shock to these folks. As Darrel said, handgun stopping power is an oxymoron.

The other trend I've chuckled at is the tendancy of folks who've been in two way pistol matches to radically upgrade their handgun after the fact. Three times I've had buddies try to carry .44 Magnums after finding that their 9mm/.357/.45 didn't have quite the deathray effects they thought it should.

Giz
 
I've been shot on three occassions. First, was a 22LR through my right hand by a rapist intent on getting to my sisters in our home while my folks were away. I was just 16 at the time. He was in his early 20s. I got both of my sisters into a locked room and stood in front of the door, struggling with him. I felt the blast and push of the bullet -- it went clean through my palm. The pain hit a few seconds later. It did not stop me from grappling with this piece of filth. After he fled, I walked to my folk's bathroom, looked at the bloody hole in my palm, and collapsed in shock, my knees just gave out. I shook for days afterwards, not believing what had happened.

The second time I was hit was with a 380ACP FMJ. It entered my left arm just behind the wrist at an angle and traveled up the arm, exiting on the inside edge of my elbow. I was along with a partner serving papers and it erupted. I recall the hit -- felt like being poked hard by someone's finger. The pain did not kick in until after things settled down. Very little blood, I think because of the swelling around the wound cavity. Docs stitched me up and sent me home.

Third time I was wearing body armor and took a 357magnum JHP slug to the trauma plate on a housecall at about 7 feet distance. The perp absorbed 7 shots from our team's 9mm (115 Silvertips) before he went down. He shot another two officers during this exchange. The seventh shot was a headshot that entered just below his right eye. The coroner's report found him to be loaded with crystal meth. The bullet felt like being hit by a solid, hard punch. The vest keeps the bullet from penetrating into you, but the force is there.

I have left that era of my life behind me -- been almost 4 years now. My civilian life is peaceful, quiet, and does not involve folks pointing weapons at me. I have nothing but the utmost respect for our peace officers. It is something I would never do again, despite several of my LEO friends wanting me to.

Hope that this has proven useful. It was not an easy thing to put down.
 
In Childress County, Texas, probably about 1994, the Sheriff and three deputies went to serve a 'hold-and-observe' psychiatric warrant.

The subject of the warrant was a man of Samoan descent, well-trained in the martial arts, who was thought to be suffering from the beginning stages of schizophrenia.

He had trained the Sheriff and most of the deputies in Defensive Tactics, was a friend of theirs, and the officers were trying to get him the help he was beginning to need.

I'm not sure what precipitated the attack, but he charged the officers with a knife, badly cutting the Sheriff in the intial assault. The Chief Deputy fired multiple shots from a 10mm, striking the subject in the upper torso, before being critically lacerated. As he went down, the deputies behind him opened up with a .45 and a 9mm, also achieving multiple torso hits, and also getting cut.

The attack ended when one deputy slipped in the Sheriff's blood, fell to the floor and fired his 9mm at an upwards angle, striking a fatal injury to the subjects head.

If I remember correctly, the subject had multiple shots in the center of mass, from a variety of calibres.

Robert, what I know of this shoot was learned over coffee, but the Amarillo Daily News should have an article, and Childress has a newspaper of their own.

LawDog


[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited March 18, 2000).]
 
When I get my .45-70, I think it will approach "stopping power". My Mossbergs, at close range, I also feel that way about. Everything else goes down from there.

I am planning on "upgunning" my primary "service" sidearm caliber from .40 S&W to .41 Mag. I think the additional 75 grains weight at same velocity could make a difference.

On the other side of the equation, a friend of mine dropped a deer with a single round from a 10mm last year. He is, however, one of the best shots I know.

Spartacus has seen quite a few folks in the ER who have been attacked. He warned me to shoot anyone who comes at me with a stick! Evidently, everyone he's seen that has been attacked with a board has died. He related the story of one lady who came in with a butcher knife buried in her chest. She was talking fairly calmly. She would have bled to death eventually, but it was taking a while. He has seen lots of survivable GSW, as well.
 
Law Dog. One interesting point. Nobody had a shotgun? If one had been present to the side I think we would be able to say with some confidence what would or would NOT have taken place.
As I tell students, you can do everything right and still get killed.
 
Good point, Plusp.

The list of tactical boo-boos would fill volumes.

The biggest one was they thought that because they were all his friends, he wouldn't hurt them.

They were fat, dumb, happy and crowded into a hallway when the attack began.

Why didn't they take a shotgun?

I doubt that the idea even crossed their minds. Hell, they weren't even wearing armour.

LawDog

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"Go ahead, rely on Windows Sniper 4.0, if you want to, but I prefer not to need software patches when I'm in a firefight."
-Wolfgang Kies
 
see the string in handguns called "handguns poor tools for crisis resolution?" some interesting facts, comments and thoughts on this subject.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Few people feel much pain as a result of being shot from the impact of Endorphines that hit and are 500 more times more powerful than morphine.
In ANY shooting including those I've been involved in there are serious errors. You can't do everything text book perfect. That is why the "what I am going to do" school is so damned funny. Shows who's been there and done it.
Reminds me of when we were young teen guys planning on getting laid. We sure had a lot of good plans but nobody told us the girls had one also. Thus we talked about it more than we did it.
 
When I got hit with a .45 caliber 230 grain hardball - I was knocked down...
I didnt realize what had actually happend untill I registered the echo of the shot fired. I felt what seemed to be a hole in my vest and was thusly not very happy. I tried to get up and felt crunching and then a burning in my chest. Had a hard time breathing. Couldnt take a much more than a shallow breath it felt like. I didnt know if I was penetrated or not - but I thought I was.
I was still able return fire - 8 rounds of my own .45. Especially after I saw the subject start to aim at me. I was very angry. While I did suffer some severe damage from my crushed sturnum - it cant be said I was stopped. A few minutes later I felt all the pain... What does it feel like? Hell on Wheels. Couldnt move my arms with out it causing horrible agony - for weeks. Try coughing. 6 weeks to recover and the spot still hurts years later to the touch... kinda like an electric short or shock... Nerve damage. I faired better than the BG.

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited March 20, 2000).]
 
Now George..:-)....you did double tap, assume a weaver or a good speed rock and use your sights. And your hit rate was? Seems like the thugs was 100% and you were dead meat except for a vest (happened to me also) and the dropping effect is from blood pressure spike causing depletion of blood supply to brain. Had it not been for the vest the bad guy would have won as in my case. I have a LONG list of errors I made and my gun was IN my hand when shot and I had a LOT of warning as to what was going on. It's not like a movie.
 
No - I didnt know he had a weapon at all... I was hit and down before I knew what happened. He was 100% with that one shot - yes. But thats all he got. Considering he fired that round over his shoulder while running away from me - I think it was a fluke he hit me. Most people think that too.
My stance when I returned fire?
I was on my back, I braced my pistol along the side of my right leg. 30 meters, low light, just been centerpunched, scored two hits which put the BG down. I think it was not a bad performance on my part... but thats just me. I hope you dont add that to your Bad Guys shoot better because of lack of training stats... not quite right is it?
Yes, I fired 8 rounds for 2 hits, and he fire once for 1 hit... but then again, I walk on two legs and he hops on one. Who won?
 
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