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what happened to gunsmiths
- Thread starter Newton24b
- Start date
payin' the bills
I've spent many hours visiting with a local gunsmith. And by smith, I mean yes, he can and does fabricate parts and do custom work. In fact, that is what he prefers to do, and would spend all his time on. He also has the integrity to tell you that your request won't work, or doesn't make sense, or will cost x times the value of the gun - but if you want it done anyway (heirloom?) he'll do it. And I've had him do things, and when he explains how much work it was, I can't believe how little the charge ends up being.
What he actually does 90% of the time is work as an "armorer/parts changer." Why? It pays the bills so he can (sometimes) do what he really enjoys. But with the internet, and cheap interchangeable parts and weapons, people just won't pay what his time and skill level is really worth - and he can either give up and do something else, or keep doing what he likes and hope to make living.
I hope he stays in business, if only that the next time I need a sear cut on my grandfather's 100 year old shotgun, or a sheared screw extracted from the first (well used) gun I ever bought as a boy (with my own chores money!) he is there to do it.
He stoped doing work for others because they wanted everything done "right now" and for the "bottom dollar" price. If you needed a gun blued, give him time til he had say 5 or so to do, then come drop it off. Problem was people didnt want to wait, or they thought they were doing him a huge favor paying him $100 for a strip/reblue/reassemble, then they bad mouthed the guy for refusing work, etc.
I've spent many hours visiting with a local gunsmith. And by smith, I mean yes, he can and does fabricate parts and do custom work. In fact, that is what he prefers to do, and would spend all his time on. He also has the integrity to tell you that your request won't work, or doesn't make sense, or will cost x times the value of the gun - but if you want it done anyway (heirloom?) he'll do it. And I've had him do things, and when he explains how much work it was, I can't believe how little the charge ends up being.
What he actually does 90% of the time is work as an "armorer/parts changer." Why? It pays the bills so he can (sometimes) do what he really enjoys. But with the internet, and cheap interchangeable parts and weapons, people just won't pay what his time and skill level is really worth - and he can either give up and do something else, or keep doing what he likes and hope to make living.
I hope he stays in business, if only that the next time I need a sear cut on my grandfather's 100 year old shotgun, or a sheared screw extracted from the first (well used) gun I ever bought as a boy (with my own chores money!) he is there to do it.
In his book, the modern gunsmith, James howe (of griffin and howe) spent entire chapters on how to make your own chambering reamers, checkering tools, rifling broaches and cutters, and so forth.
This guy honestly used to grab a file and a piece of steel, and make his own checkering tools, then spend the time checkering the stock. At the time, I thought that was insane. Seriously. Making your own drill bits and reamers?
Everything necessary to do repairs and customization is available now, so the gunsmith doesn't have to spend several hours of his own time making one. Seriously, if you want a custom sight installed and it requires a special tool, are you going to pay the smith for the 4 hours it takes to make it? No.
It's perfectly rational, IMO, to refuse to do jobs that require tools you don't have. making them is out of the question, financially, and buying them isn't any good either, if the job won't be profitable.
This guy honestly used to grab a file and a piece of steel, and make his own checkering tools, then spend the time checkering the stock. At the time, I thought that was insane. Seriously. Making your own drill bits and reamers?
Everything necessary to do repairs and customization is available now, so the gunsmith doesn't have to spend several hours of his own time making one. Seriously, if you want a custom sight installed and it requires a special tool, are you going to pay the smith for the 4 hours it takes to make it? No.
It's perfectly rational, IMO, to refuse to do jobs that require tools you don't have. making them is out of the question, financially, and buying them isn't any good either, if the job won't be profitable.
btw, my wife works in an agency that provides job training to disabled people. They are now refusing to do certain things, because they recognize the fact that certain careers are just not viable. Taxidermy is one, gunsmithing another. They will provide training, but it's made clear up front that being a taxidermist in carterville, MO, is not a viable way to make a living.
The real ones starved and died a while back. These days, we're left with armorers & part swappers.
No good gunsmith ever starves. But they seldom get rich, either. Real gunsmithing takes time, and skill. And for those, you pay through the nose.
Today, everybody wants everything right away, and as cheap as can be. And when they don't get it, they think you are ripping them off.
Compare the smith's time to your time. What do you make per hour? Can you do what he does? (and for most of us the answer is no, otherwise we wouldn't be in his shop).
Nobody outside the business seems to understand that it takes time to do things right, even with jigs and all the right tools. And gunsmiths have overhead, too.
What does the mechanic at the car dealership make an hour? All he does is "swap parts". Ok, some troubleshooting too. If all he does is replace a couple screws (bolts?), and you get a bill for $40, people think little of it. When the gunsmith does that, people scream to high heaven how they are being ripped off.
Good gunsmiths still exist, but they aren't common like they used to be. 50 years ago, people still worked with metal and wood as hobbies, today, most people spend their free time doing other things, like sitting in front of a screen, typing.....
Good gunsmiths still exist, but they aren't common like they used to be. 50 years ago, people still worked with metal and wood as hobbies, today, most people spend their free time doing other things, like sitting in front of a screen, typing
Well said. To add to some of the comments, god help this nation "IF we ever had to gear up for war time production as we did at the start of us entering WW II" Reason being all the manufacturing is gone along with all those who could take a piece of raw material and either by hand or machine make a part, tool or piece of equipment. The journeymen machinist is long gone and now we have button pushers ( CNC ) The average CNC machine operator could not do his job manually on a machine from the ( old) days.
Truly a shame that most of the younger generation has no desire to learn to to things the "old way"
This is NOT A KNOCK AGAINST CNC OPERATORS
I love firearms.
I love everything about firearms.
I started out when I was about 8 years old. My favorite pastime was reading everything I could about guns before I could even touch them.
Fast forward a bit---I decided that I wanted to be a gunsmith. So, I started working on other people's guns.
I now do work only on my own guns. I have recently refinished a stock and mounted a recoil pad for my friend, who has let me use his Kubota 3300 whenever I wanted to. Along the way, here are some things I learned about gunsmithing...
1. Drop in parts don't. Very seldom do you actually find a drop in part that works the way it is supposed to. And even though you might have a pre-machined part, there is still some careful hand fitting involved.
2. Measure twice. Three and four times. Then, measure once again before you cut.
3. You can always remove more metal. You can't put it back easily.
4. The gunsmith's battle cry: "Always cut the cheapest part FIRST!!!"
5. An impatient customer is heartburn waiting to happen. They are not interested in how your last tap just broke off in the hole; why you are refusing to fit a new scope base onto a receiver that is holed like swiss cheese; and why you can't do anything with his revolver that the "hammer handle rebarreling tool" tweaked the frame upon.
They want results RIGHT NOW. So when they bring in the proverbial "box of gun" that used to be a Remington Model 11, they don't care that the gun is not in production--they want to know WHY you can't just make them a screw, thank you very much--while you're trying desperately to find what the *$%!! the pitch is on a magazine stop screw for that shotgun.
6. What do you mean, you can't reproduce the bluing with cold blue?
7. No, they do NOT want to pay for a replacement for the Smith and Wesson revolver trigger and hammer that they dorked up trying to do an action job with a coarse stone. Of COURSE it was a defect in manufacturing!!!
Things have changed. As a gunsmith, you now have to have different licenses, worry about taxes, keep financial records and have good paperwork for when the ATF decides to do a compliance inspection.
You have to worry about HAZMAT, and the proper disposal thereof.
And you do get cramps in your hands from fitting small parts.
Finally, consider this: When I was actively in the trade, I billed at $35/hr. This started when I laid hands on your gun, and stopped when I put it down and was not actually working on the gun or its parts thereof.
Do you REALLY want to get the bill for producing a part from tool steel, shaping, fitting and polishing to final dimensions, and heat treating the part if needed for durability? If so, watch your $50 bill for parts replacement go right through the roof.
I love everything about firearms.
I started out when I was about 8 years old. My favorite pastime was reading everything I could about guns before I could even touch them.
Fast forward a bit---I decided that I wanted to be a gunsmith. So, I started working on other people's guns.
I now do work only on my own guns. I have recently refinished a stock and mounted a recoil pad for my friend, who has let me use his Kubota 3300 whenever I wanted to. Along the way, here are some things I learned about gunsmithing...
1. Drop in parts don't. Very seldom do you actually find a drop in part that works the way it is supposed to. And even though you might have a pre-machined part, there is still some careful hand fitting involved.
2. Measure twice. Three and four times. Then, measure once again before you cut.
3. You can always remove more metal. You can't put it back easily.
4. The gunsmith's battle cry: "Always cut the cheapest part FIRST!!!"
5. An impatient customer is heartburn waiting to happen. They are not interested in how your last tap just broke off in the hole; why you are refusing to fit a new scope base onto a receiver that is holed like swiss cheese; and why you can't do anything with his revolver that the "hammer handle rebarreling tool" tweaked the frame upon.
They want results RIGHT NOW. So when they bring in the proverbial "box of gun" that used to be a Remington Model 11, they don't care that the gun is not in production--they want to know WHY you can't just make them a screw, thank you very much--while you're trying desperately to find what the *$%!! the pitch is on a magazine stop screw for that shotgun.
6. What do you mean, you can't reproduce the bluing with cold blue?
7. No, they do NOT want to pay for a replacement for the Smith and Wesson revolver trigger and hammer that they dorked up trying to do an action job with a coarse stone. Of COURSE it was a defect in manufacturing!!!
Things have changed. As a gunsmith, you now have to have different licenses, worry about taxes, keep financial records and have good paperwork for when the ATF decides to do a compliance inspection.
You have to worry about HAZMAT, and the proper disposal thereof.
And you do get cramps in your hands from fitting small parts.
Finally, consider this: When I was actively in the trade, I billed at $35/hr. This started when I laid hands on your gun, and stopped when I put it down and was not actually working on the gun or its parts thereof.
Do you REALLY want to get the bill for producing a part from tool steel, shaping, fitting and polishing to final dimensions, and heat treating the part if needed for durability? If so, watch your $50 bill for parts replacement go right through the roof.
This is NOT A KNOCK AGAINST CNC OPERATORS
Maybe it should be! In my opinion a machinist should master the traditional mill, lathe, and associated equipment before they are allowed to touch a CNC. Personally, unless I was producing large numbers if identical parts I preferred the "old way". It often took longer to program the CNC that it did to just turn out a small number of parts.
dieselbeef
New member
i do fab /welding..its not just gunsmiths...same story in my line of work. slow and costly for quality.
guns is a whole nother level..i could probly do alot of gun stuff but id be a gun mech more than a smith. working with meal is petty unforgiving
guns even more so
guns is a whole nother level..i could probly do alot of gun stuff but id be a gun mech more than a smith. working with meal is petty unforgiving
guns even more so
If I may make an observation...
If we were to go back to the definition I see here of a gunsmith, we would be cutting parts out with saws and files. There is nothing wrong with that--but I use my last example of time equaling money.
Here's an example...let us say that you wanted a beavertail grip safety on your 1911 pistol. You could do it the way that it was done when they first came out:
a. Select a GI grip safety.
b. Heat the tail.
c. Hammer-forge and shape the tail. LET IT AIR COOL--it you quench it you will harden the metal.
d. File and fit the part.
e. Re-heat and do final shaping.
f. Contour the beavertail, fitting to the frame and existing contours.
g. Remove beavertail and refinish to match the gun.
h. Fit the part to the gun itself.
i. Prove the installation with safety checks.
j. Prove the pistol with live ammunition.
Now, at a rate of $50.00 per hour, how much do you think that would cost?
How is a beavertail installed now?
a. Meet with the customer, select the beavertail.
b. Install the jig in the frame.
c. Perform the initial shaping, and matching to the jig.
d. Remove the jig.
e. Install the beavertail, fitting it to the trigger stirrup.
f. Contour the frame to the part.
g. Prove the pistol with safety checks and live ammunition.
I can install a beavertail from start to finish in about 45 minutes. I like Ed Brown beavertails; they're durable and can be fitted easily and quickly for that "it looks like it grew there" fit.
So--how much money do you want to spend?
If we were to go back to the definition I see here of a gunsmith, we would be cutting parts out with saws and files. There is nothing wrong with that--but I use my last example of time equaling money.
Here's an example...let us say that you wanted a beavertail grip safety on your 1911 pistol. You could do it the way that it was done when they first came out:
a. Select a GI grip safety.
b. Heat the tail.
c. Hammer-forge and shape the tail. LET IT AIR COOL--it you quench it you will harden the metal.
d. File and fit the part.
e. Re-heat and do final shaping.
f. Contour the beavertail, fitting to the frame and existing contours.
g. Remove beavertail and refinish to match the gun.
h. Fit the part to the gun itself.
i. Prove the installation with safety checks.
j. Prove the pistol with live ammunition.
Now, at a rate of $50.00 per hour, how much do you think that would cost?
How is a beavertail installed now?
a. Meet with the customer, select the beavertail.
b. Install the jig in the frame.
c. Perform the initial shaping, and matching to the jig.
d. Remove the jig.
e. Install the beavertail, fitting it to the trigger stirrup.
f. Contour the frame to the part.
g. Prove the pistol with safety checks and live ammunition.
I can install a beavertail from start to finish in about 45 minutes. I like Ed Brown beavertails; they're durable and can be fitted easily and quickly for that "it looks like it grew there" fit.
So--how much money do you want to spend?
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Powderman,
I do agree with what your saying about certain popular firearms and adding custom parts, but there are literally TONS of different designs that doesnt have the same following and parts availability as say the Glocks, 1911, and AR-15. Getting some firearms repaired, even replacing something as simple as a broke spring can become a major hurdle at time. Im handy enough, and knowledgeable enough to completely strip ALMOST all of the firearms I own, but such things as a broken spring on 1889 era Remington Double with exposed hammers is a bit beyond me, and when it happened, there was no replacement available that I could find.
While I think there is a role for certain "customizers" in the gunsmith field, I do still feel that there will always be a need for old school gunsmiths who can make such things as springs, screws, sight and scope bases, etc,. Its not always important to be able to actually build a firearm from scratch, but knowing how to make the smaller parts is a big step towards repairing some of the firearms where no parts are available, or they are very limited. Thats the problem that I keep seeing. While I will never be as knowledable as my lawer friend, I keep learning when I get the chance about machining, and making parts. There may not be any money to speak of in it as there was years ago, but at least I can enjoy doing more myself as time moves along.
I do agree with what your saying about certain popular firearms and adding custom parts, but there are literally TONS of different designs that doesnt have the same following and parts availability as say the Glocks, 1911, and AR-15. Getting some firearms repaired, even replacing something as simple as a broke spring can become a major hurdle at time. Im handy enough, and knowledgeable enough to completely strip ALMOST all of the firearms I own, but such things as a broken spring on 1889 era Remington Double with exposed hammers is a bit beyond me, and when it happened, there was no replacement available that I could find.
While I think there is a role for certain "customizers" in the gunsmith field, I do still feel that there will always be a need for old school gunsmiths who can make such things as springs, screws, sight and scope bases, etc,. Its not always important to be able to actually build a firearm from scratch, but knowing how to make the smaller parts is a big step towards repairing some of the firearms where no parts are available, or they are very limited. Thats the problem that I keep seeing. While I will never be as knowledable as my lawer friend, I keep learning when I get the chance about machining, and making parts. There may not be any money to speak of in it as there was years ago, but at least I can enjoy doing more myself as time moves along.
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Agreed, 1000%.
The things I would like to learn how to do properly:
1. How to make springs properly--both leaf and coil.
2. The RIGHT way to use machine tools. I wish that I could take a sabbatical, and attend a good school, like the Colorado School of Trades, Pine Technical College, Yavapai Community College--or I'd be happy simply being an apprentice to a good gunsmith. Unfortunately, I can't.
Maybe one day....maybe...I'd love to build my own firearm from scratch.
The things I would like to learn how to do properly:
1. How to make springs properly--both leaf and coil.
2. The RIGHT way to use machine tools. I wish that I could take a sabbatical, and attend a good school, like the Colorado School of Trades, Pine Technical College, Yavapai Community College--or I'd be happy simply being an apprentice to a good gunsmith. Unfortunately, I can't.
Maybe one day....maybe...I'd love to build my own firearm from scratch.
Bill DeShivs
New member
I don't do gunsmithing for anyone else anymore, except some plating jobs on pistol slides.
What I do is repair and restoration of collectors cutlery. There are less than a dozen real cutlers in the US- maybe half that. I wish I could find a local protege, but few are interested.
It seems that people these days are interested in guns as tools only. The "tactical movement" has destroyed appreciation for fine workmanship. As long as the gun is painted black or O.D. and has a rail to mount all sorts of miscellaneous crap they're happy with it. I'm a hand engraver, and you wouldn't believe the disparaging remarks I see about engraved guns on the Internet.
What I do is repair and restoration of collectors cutlery. There are less than a dozen real cutlers in the US- maybe half that. I wish I could find a local protege, but few are interested.
It seems that people these days are interested in guns as tools only. The "tactical movement" has destroyed appreciation for fine workmanship. As long as the gun is painted black or O.D. and has a rail to mount all sorts of miscellaneous crap they're happy with it. I'm a hand engraver, and you wouldn't believe the disparaging remarks I see about engraved guns on the Internet.
I do deal with a lot of the "tactical" stuff.
But I'll tell you what really makes me all warm and fuzzy...
Something along the lines of a fine Model 70 Winchester rifle, with a deep, rich blued action, a polished and jeweled bolt, stocked with select Circassian walnut and a nice, hand rubbed finish, with a shine so deep I can shave in it.
Or, maybe a mint Smith and Wesson Model 22 (the N-frame revolver), all original, in Carbonia blue.
Perhaps a nice, fresh, unfired and unturned 6" Python, in Royal Blue--of course!
Wanna see some primo Gun stocks? Take a look at Wenig's site--and look at the first two over and unders. Wow! Talk about just GORGEOUS!!!!
But I'll tell you what really makes me all warm and fuzzy...
Something along the lines of a fine Model 70 Winchester rifle, with a deep, rich blued action, a polished and jeweled bolt, stocked with select Circassian walnut and a nice, hand rubbed finish, with a shine so deep I can shave in it.
Or, maybe a mint Smith and Wesson Model 22 (the N-frame revolver), all original, in Carbonia blue.
Perhaps a nice, fresh, unfired and unturned 6" Python, in Royal Blue--of course!
Wanna see some primo Gun stocks? Take a look at Wenig's site--and look at the first two over and unders. Wow! Talk about just GORGEOUS!!!!
I wish I could find a local protege, but few are interested.
Where were you and I 30 years ago. Would have been grateful and happy to have someone take me under his wing in order to learn.
A friend who is a gunsmith doing it part time has been collecting/making tools/jigs since 1991. Hes not even close to having all he needs or wants and has spent a small fortune on tools especially when money was plentiful and a non-issue. I am working on and it may never happen to be able to attend Bob Rogers 1911 build class. Doing so would only scratch the surface of his knowledge and expertise of 1911 building and customization.