Am getting ready to load .45 cal. I have both HP-38 and TiteGroup powders. The charts on the labels of both containers show 200 grain bullets. I am reloading with 230 grain bullets, and none of my books show either HP-38 or TiteGroup powders. Does that mean I should not use either of the two powders and purchase something else, or can I "convert" somehow the amount of powder to load?
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What grain amount?
- Thread starter fauxpa46
- Start date
We can help you with data .Am getting ready to load .45 cal. I have both HP-38 and TiteGroup powders. The charts on the labels of both containers show 200 grain bullets. I am reloading with 230 grain bullets, and none of my books show either HP-38 or TiteGroup powders. Does that mean I should not use either of the two powders and purchase something else, or can I "convert" somehow the amount of powder to load?
We must know which 45 you are reloading for .
45 GAP , 45 ACP , 45 Auto Rim , 45 Colt ... which one ?
And , bullet weight (is 230 gr. correct ) , jacketed , plated , cast / coated lead ...?
Any information will help us find you a proper load ...help us help you .
Gary
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
A lot of companies have load data on their websites, and Hodgen has data for 45 acp using hp-38 for 200 and 230 gn bullets. If loading for some other 45 caliber, they likely have that too.
A lot of companies have load data on their websites, and Hodgen has data for 45 acp using hp-38 for 200 and 230 gn bullets. If loading for some other 45 caliber, they likely have that too.
Fauxpa46,
HP38/231 is one of the most popular powder's for 45 Auto (a.k.a., 45 ACP). Lyman, Hornady, and others list it. However, we need to know for sure that 45 Auto is the cartridge you are referring to, and we need the particular 230-grain bullet you are using as they have different shapes and therefore have different finished cartridge lengths. Seating depth as well as powder charge both affect pressure, which is why we want to determine the right cartridge overall length.
HP38/231 is one of the most popular powder's for 45 Auto (a.k.a., 45 ACP). Lyman, Hornady, and others list it. However, we need to know for sure that 45 Auto is the cartridge you are referring to, and we need the particular 230-grain bullet you are using as they have different shapes and therefore have different finished cartridge lengths. Seating depth as well as powder charge both affect pressure, which is why we want to determine the right cartridge overall length.
Firstly, thank you for all the feedback/questions to help me. I offer the following:
1) .45 cal ACP
2) Berry's .452 230g round nose bullets
3) Lyman's "bible" newest edition
4) I have come to understand that Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP-38 are the same powder, or at least close enough for cross-reference.
5) Information gleaned from inquiry on a couple of Facebook Groups:
a) 1.266" - 1.271" OAL at 5.5 grains
b) 2.260" - 1.265" OAL at 4.7-5.0 grains
c) 1.250" - 1.270" OAL at 5.6 grains
As you can see, the information is not exacting, and I realize this is all subject to experimentation. However, caution prevailing I'd rather be as concise as possible!
BTW, the gun (at the present time) from which these would be shot is a Springfield Ronin 4.25".
1) .45 cal ACP
2) Berry's .452 230g round nose bullets
3) Lyman's "bible" newest edition
4) I have come to understand that Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP-38 are the same powder, or at least close enough for cross-reference.
5) Information gleaned from inquiry on a couple of Facebook Groups:
a) 1.266" - 1.271" OAL at 5.5 grains
b) 2.260" - 1.265" OAL at 4.7-5.0 grains
c) 1.250" - 1.270" OAL at 5.6 grains
As you can see, the information is not exacting, and I realize this is all subject to experimentation. However, caution prevailing I'd rather be as concise as possible!
BTW, the gun (at the present time) from which these would be shot is a Springfield Ronin 4.25".
Jim Watson
New member
I would not depend on FB for load data, it might be in error in something less obvious than your #5b OAL.
Your #4 is right to start, current production HP38 is The Same as W231, not just "close enough". Look on the Hodgdon site, load data is identical down to the last tenth of a grain, fps, and CUP. There is no difference except the label. Old books will show different loads because Winchester was distributing their own powder and had slightly different canister grade specifications. No more. I have watched a dealer open a 50 lb keg labeled HP38 but the packing slip buried in the powder said 231.
I would normally recommend the Hodgdon www or print data but they are sticking to numbers derived from the Hornady 230 grain flat point at a lot shorter OAL than roundnose. That is a safety factor, deeper seating, lighter loads.
I have not loaded any large amount of 230 gr .45 ACP with more than 5.2 gr of HP38 because it easily makes Major power factor at that, velocities in the 750 fps range, more ore less depending on the gun. I am not out for factory equivalent.
Your #4 is right to start, current production HP38 is The Same as W231, not just "close enough". Look on the Hodgdon site, load data is identical down to the last tenth of a grain, fps, and CUP. There is no difference except the label. Old books will show different loads because Winchester was distributing their own powder and had slightly different canister grade specifications. No more. I have watched a dealer open a 50 lb keg labeled HP38 but the packing slip buried in the powder said 231.
I would normally recommend the Hodgdon www or print data but they are sticking to numbers derived from the Hornady 230 grain flat point at a lot shorter OAL than roundnose. That is a safety factor, deeper seating, lighter loads.
I have not loaded any large amount of 230 gr .45 ACP with more than 5.2 gr of HP38 because it easily makes Major power factor at that, velocities in the 750 fps range, more ore less depending on the gun. I am not out for factory equivalent.
On berrys site under loading tips for the bullet their recommended COL is 1.237. I generally try to use the bullet makers recommended COL as I find I almost never run into feeding issues.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-230gr-rn
231 and HP-38 are the exact same powder, just made by 2 different manufacturers.
my hornady manual has data for both powders
230g fmj-rn col 1.230 (very close to berrys recommended COL)
hp-38 start 5.0, max, 5.7
titegroup start 4.3, max 4.8
both show a velocity in the 800fps range at max out of a 5in barrel
You can download the hornady app and buy the whole manual for $20, or just 1 cartridge (say 45auto) for a dollar. You own either, no subscriptions.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-230gr-rn
231 and HP-38 are the exact same powder, just made by 2 different manufacturers.
my hornady manual has data for both powders
230g fmj-rn col 1.230 (very close to berrys recommended COL)
hp-38 start 5.0, max, 5.7
titegroup start 4.3, max 4.8
both show a velocity in the 800fps range at max out of a 5in barrel
You can download the hornady app and buy the whole manual for $20, or just 1 cartridge (say 45auto) for a dollar. You own either, no subscriptions.
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Hodgdon's website has data for those powders and a 230 grain LRN, which will work for Berrys bullet.
One thing nice a bout the Lyman manuals is that they have a variety of powders and bullets. Many manuals are either specific to their bullets or their powder. Unfortunately the Lyman is lacking a depth of selection for some combinations. The powders listed for a 230 grain FMJ bullet is limited to 8 powder in the 48th edition, which is what I have downloaded on my computer. However the 225 Grn LRN has 18 powders listed and includes the powders in question.
One thing nice a bout the Lyman manuals is that they have a variety of powders and bullets. Many manuals are either specific to their bullets or their powder. Unfortunately the Lyman is lacking a depth of selection for some combinations. The powders listed for a 230 grain FMJ bullet is limited to 8 powder in the 48th edition, which is what I have downloaded on my computer. However the 225 Grn LRN has 18 powders listed and includes the powders in question.
Both HP38 and 231 are canister-grade OBP231 made by St. Marks powder in Florida. Canister grade qualification has changed over time. They are currently calling for ±3% of a nominal burn rate. Specs from all the makers used to be wider.
The Berry's 1.237" COL is the one to use. Reddog81 is spot on. The plated bullets are soft enough that the Hodgon data for the lead round nose bullet will work well with it.
The Berry's 1.237" COL is the one to use. Reddog81 is spot on. The plated bullets are soft enough that the Hodgon data for the lead round nose bullet will work well with it.
Jim Watson
New member
I remember when DuPont, seeing Hodgdon's success in selling surplus powder, put their fresh production on the market. I don't recall much hoo-haw over the 4895s, but people shooting .270s and Magnums were dismayed to see different data for the 4831s, the IMR being "faster burning."
Hodgdon said "you made it in the first place, you must have changed something."
DuPont said "we are making it the same as always, you are selling old stale powder."
Hodgdon said "you made it in the first place, you must have changed something."
DuPont said "we are making it the same as always, you are selling old stale powder."
Use Berry's COL 1.237" they should know .
Cast bullet data should be used for plated .
RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 : data for 45-230-RN
230 gr. cast lead round nose .
HP38 / 231
start load : 5.1 grs @ 783 fps
maximum load : 5.6 grs. @ 847 fps
A personal favorite load of mine is a 230 gr. cast lead RN or TC
and 5.2 grs. HP38 / 231 @ approx. 799 fps .
Very accurate from my 5" AMT Hardballer w/ 100% cycling to boot .
Gary
Cast bullet data should be used for plated .
RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 : data for 45-230-RN
230 gr. cast lead round nose .
HP38 / 231
start load : 5.1 grs @ 783 fps
maximum load : 5.6 grs. @ 847 fps
A personal favorite load of mine is a 230 gr. cast lead RN or TC
and 5.2 grs. HP38 / 231 @ approx. 799 fps .
Very accurate from my 5" AMT Hardballer w/ 100% cycling to boot .
Gary
Thank you all for the time taken for my benefit. I appreciate all the help. I believe I will be using the HP-38 at 5.0 grains to start.
As to COL/OAL, I find I cannot use my micrometer to my satisfaction. I cannot get such a reading (for instance, 1.272"). Can't figure out what I might be doing wrong. All I have to go on is comparing to a factory load. I'd rather be able to use the micrometer. Perhaps I'm not reading the micrometer correctly?
As to COL/OAL, I find I cannot use my micrometer to my satisfaction. I cannot get such a reading (for instance, 1.272"). Can't figure out what I might be doing wrong. All I have to go on is comparing to a factory load. I'd rather be able to use the micrometer. Perhaps I'm not reading the micrometer correctly?
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And, of course, if you haven't heard of it, you should check out the ever popular 'plonk' test.
An illustration of it is in this thread.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587893
An illustration of it is in this thread.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587893
reddog81 said:OAL = OverAll Length
COL = Cartridge Overall Length
COAL = Cartridge OverAll Length
Very close. A historical tidbit is you need to add a hyphen in the last case to make it "over-all". That hyphen is why it gets two-letter initials. It's an obsolete spelling still used until sometime in the 1950s. My 1948 Webster's says overall is the spelling used to mean "all things considered", while over-all is the spelling used to mean the length of an object. By the time you get to the 1960s Webster's, the hyphenated form has been dropped and the single-word spelling carries both meanings. But a lot of shooting stuff was written before the spelling change, and the initials for the obsolete form were carried over out of habit.
I don't know how to address the measuring question without knowing if fauxpa81 actually means a caliper or a micrometer, as some people interchange those words. In either case, it is also necessary to know the type (vernier, dial, digital). Wikipedia has illustrations or photos of all three types of caliper to compare. They show only a vernier scale micrometer, though.