What does an FFL make possible?

[gyvel]

I suspect that it was Pass(sic) Pro policy and not state law, because it was a shotgun we were talking about. A Remington 870, stainless, 3", which is legal even in NJ.

That sounds more like Federal law to me. A person can only purchase a long gun out of state IF: There are no laws, restrictions, regulations, etc. that prohibit such a purchase in both states.

One good example I see here is persons from California are not eligible to buy long guns in Arizona because there is a waiting period in California and none in Arizona. Arizona does not enforce a waiting period, and cannot (and will not) comply with California laws. Probably the same is true of NJ.

Your cash and carry long gun purchase may be legal in Alabama, but not in your home state of NJ.

Sooo...If there are no restrictions on long gun purchases in the state you're in, and none in your home state (i.e. no waiting periods, FOID cards, etc.), the sale would be legal, otherwise not under Federal law.

And, something I didn't notice if it was mentioned or not, is that having an 01 FFL makes you subject to regular "in house" inspections, whereas an inspection of an 03 set of books is conducted at an BATF office with advance notice and very rarely occurs.

 

[dogtown tom]

Librarian

Quote:
Easy, look at the listing of FFL's

That list gives licensee and address - nothing about commercial location or not.

It's not that difficult to Google an address and use street view.

Seems to me that would require knowing what addresses might be located in a commercial zone

No it wouldn't. Many states allow home based businesses with little interference.

- not too hard for me in my local area, but extremely difficult out of my county, and worse out of state. Some also might be neighborhood commercial on a zoning variance, invisible unless one might want to research every entry with its local government(s).

Before ATF issues an FFL, the Industry Operation Investigator will know whether you are able to legally operate a business.....'cause he'll check with your city.

You may be correct with

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.

but I suggest that no one without detailed access to the BATF data, beyond the published list, actually is in a position to know.

Less than thirty seconds on Google will tell you nearly everything you need to know about an address.

 

[Librarian]

Less than thirty seconds on Google will tell you nearly everything you need to know about an address.

for how many addresses in the list, sufficient to establish the accuracy of

The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.

?

Feel free to do the research to support your assertion and tell us what you discover.

ETA: let me be clear: you have made an expansive claim. I don't believe it. I want you to provide the data showing the accuracy of your claim.

 

[dogtown tom]

Librarian ..... let me be clear: you have made an expansive claim. I don't believe it. I want you to provide the data showing the accuracy of your claim.

Sorry, I'm not your research assistant. As a "librarian" you should know the value of doing your own research.

It's doubtful that anything I write will convince you otherwise.
I'll stand by the research I've already done within twenty miles of my location as well as the conversations I've had with three ATF IOI's (the guys who do compliance inspections).

If it's independent "research" you want read this:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/daniel-zimmerman/getting-ffl-pros-cons/

Clicking on that map will take you to another page where the methodology is explained.


Satisfied?

 

[johnwilliamson062]

It's not that difficult to Google an address and use street view.

Just because it is a house doesn't mean it is not zoned retail/commercial. Many main thoroughfares have mixed use. My next house might be in such a location for this specific purpose.

I know others with legally registered home businesses in his local who do not have separate entrances and signage(a picture framing shop and embroidery shop). Local inspectors seem to be unconcerned. ATFE seems to have brought it up. It may be in the local law. The local inspectors don't care though.

Obviously if you live out ion the country where you can do retail, light industry, agriculture, and almost anything else without any variances it makes it easier. I don't know of any incorporated locations around me where you can run a home business without some restrictions.

subject to regular "in house" inspections

Although he did not cite this as the reason, I have considered it as a possibility. Maybe it was his first inspection and he had not realized he was giving ATFE unannounced access to his house. I think with a 01 the entire location is fair game. Maybe he was able to segregate it from his house with the remodeling.

I have considered the local FFLs trying to dissuade me. For that reason I have also discussed what they have said with FFLs in other locations outside of an area where we would be in competition. I have had similar feedback about the issues.

Those who piggy back off another business in a retail zoned location seem quite happy though.

Dogtown, have you been through any audits?

On the other hand maybe it isn't such a hassle. Maybe I just keep going back to the fact that I could spend the $5000 I would need for a safe on mowing equipment, hire a few college kids, and make considerably more money running a lawn business 20 hours a week in the summer than I would running a transfer FFL year round.

 

[Prof Young]

Thanks for all the info.

Forum Followers:

Thanks. I think I have all my questions answered and will not be applying for an FFL.

To clarify some content from my OP. Yes, I can ship to a local FFL but usually the cost of doing that negates whatever sale price I find on an "out of state" gun.

When I lived in Indiana for part of the year I could buy long guns at Mid West Gun exchange, but still had to follow all the IL rules as my permanent address was still in IL. I could buy the gun, do the IL paper work and pick it up a day later. Handguns, however had to be shipped to an IL FFL. However the local Dunhams Sporting Goods store was not set up to sell to anyone from IL. The could only sell to residents of Michigan or Indiana. So I could never avail myself of the good buys at Dunhams.

I guess it's true in any state that they could ship to my local FFL. Does that mean my local FFL is technically buying the gun and I am then buying it from the local FFL? Wonder how that all works with Illinois paper work and waiting period.

Anyway, thanks for all the great info.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

 

[2ndsojourn]

"Does that mean my local FFL is technically buying the gun and I am then buying it from the local FFL?"

That's correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062 ..... Maybe it was his first inspection and he had not realized he was giving ATFE unannounced access to his house. I think with a 01 the entire location is fair game.

ATF is limited by Federal law to one compliance inspection per year of any FFL, not just 01's. They do not have the right to search your sock drawer, attic or basment as the inspection is limited to the licensees bound book, 4473's, multiple sale forms and inventory.

To conduct a search beyond the scope of the compliance inspection they would be required to have a search warrant just like any other LE agency.

Dogtown, have you been through any audits?

Yes. The IOI never left my dining room table in the entire two hours he was here. Haven't seen him since 2011.

On the other hand maybe it isn't such a hassle. Maybe I just keep going back to the fact that I could spend the $5000 I would need for a safe on mowing equipment, hire a few college kids, and make considerably more money running a lawn business 20 hours a week in the summer than I would running a transfer FFL year round.

Not only is a safe not required, no regulation requires you to even lock your door.

 

[dogtown tom]

2ndsojourn "Does that mean my local FFL is technically buying the gun and I am then buying it from the local FFL?"

That's correct.

No, its not correct.
He buys the gun from the dealer who is selling it. That dealer ships it to a dealer in the OP's state who transfers possession to the OP. All the local dealer will do is collect a transfer fee.

 

[carguychris]

^^^ +1 Dogtown, the receiving FFL acts as an intermediary, he/she has possession but not ownership.

It's a similar situation to dropping your gun off at the gunsmith, or hocking it at the local pawnshop; the 'smith or pawnbroker certainly does not own it while it's in his/her possession, unless you fail to pick it up in a timely manner, at which point he/she may assume ownership.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Not only is a safe not required, no regulation requires you to even lock your door

If you have an FFL at your home and you haven't invested in a decent safe, or are supporting another do so, I don't think I can take anything you say seriously.

"best business practices"

 

[leadcounsel]

This is not a hard concept.

Buyer pays out-of-state FFL (Buds guns, Bills hunting supply, Gart sports, Online gun world, Guns America, Gun Broker, etc.) with acceptable currency (beer, currency, silver, 100 car-washes, or a baseball card collection). The easiest way of thinking of this is an on-line purchase from an out-of-state FFL like Buds guns. You give them payment and they ship it to your local FFL.

Out-of-State FFL then ships gun to In-home-state-FFL. Buyer arrives, completes ATF forms, pays any transfer fees, and owns the gun (possession subject to arbitrary state laws).

Buyer, FFL #1 and FFL #2 all satisfied customers. ATF satisfied. All states/laws satisfied.

Costs are going to be gun + shipping (~$20) + transfer fee (~$20-50) + (sales tax, use tax, etc.).

On a $500 gun, you're looking at what amounts to about 10-15% "tax" or costs extra or about $50-75.

Far less costs, hassle and invasion than setting up an FFL.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/daniel-zimmerman/getting-ffl-pros-cons/

Here's a summary of a pro/con list of getting an FFL. Note:

Our research shows that over 64% of all FFL locations are from home or residential addresses.

Here's the ATF site. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/apply-license If you want to be an FFL, have at it! Competition helps gun buyers. Not clear how much it is, I've read that it's as low as $30 annually, and/or a one-time $150 fee. Plus business expenses, hassles, document storage, etc.

 

[dogtown tom]

johnwilliamson062

Quote:
Not only is a safe not required, no regulation requires you to even lock your door

If you have an FFL at your home and you haven't invested in a decent safe, or are supporting another do so, I don't think I can take anything you say seriously.

"best business practices"

Don't misunderstand me (again).
There is a difference in what is required by ATF regulation and what is common sense. John, way to often someone like you will start posting supposed ATF requirements that are not based on fact......just hearsay.

Common sense tells ME that I need a safe, an alarm system and insurance. I have loud dogs and good neighbors who work from home and don't hesitate to call when they see a strange car in front of my house. ATF doesn't require me to get that stuff, I choose to do so.

I don't need a $5000 safe......most of my transfer customers pick up their gun the day it arrives. A $1000 safe does perfectly fine.