What does an FFL make possible?

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Prof Young

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If one has an FFL can he or she walk into a guns store, buy a gun and walk out with it the same day? Or do all the waiting periods still apply? I ask because over the years I've been in gun stores in many different states, found some great buys, but of course could not purchase as a non resident of that state, or would have had to come back in one or three days and was leaving town the next day. May not be worth it to get an FFL but thought I might investigate.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
 
Other than handguns, what prevents a purchase with shipping to your local FFL?

An FFL should be good for a discount on pre-owned and consignments, probably not so much on new stuff you can order.
 
Prof Young .....If one has an FFL can he or she walk into a guns store, buy a gun and walk out with it the same day?
Or do all the waiting periods still apply? I ask because over the years I've been in gun stores in many different states, found some great buys, but of course could not purchase as a non resident of that state, or would have had to come back in one or three days and was leaving town the next day.
May not be worth it to get an FFL but thought I might investigate.
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A Federal Firearms License allows someone to be engaged in the business of firearms as a dealer, manufacturer, importer, etc. The only FFL that is issued for "personal use" is the 03FFL "Collector of Curios & Relics". C&R's are firearms that are 50 years old or older, or on the ATF C&R list.

It isn't the same as a state firearms permit which (depending on your state) may allow the holder an exemption to the FBI NICS check.

If you do not intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, but intend to use the FFL for enhancing your own collection, ATF will not approve your application.
 
to come back in one or three days and was leaving town the next day.
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Pretty sure that isn't how it works.

May not be worth it to get an FFL but thought I might investigate.
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My understanding is you currently need a storefront open to the public on a regular basis to be approved for an FFL.
Having a gunsmith business, web business, or other may also qualify, but you can't just get one by paying the $300 fee and saying you want one. You have to be able to show some actual business that goes beyond an incorporated shell.
 
"My understanding is you currently need a storefront open to the public on a regular basis to be approved for an FFL."

I believe local zoning codes have a lot to do with some of the requirements. My FFL transfer guy is what many call a 'kitchen table FFL'. He has a separate room in his house, fitted up as an office with a somewhat large safe, filing cabinets, desk, computer, etc. It's not a storefront, and he doesn't have any normal operating hours. He does it part time, as he has a regular job, for a little extra cash.



"Other than handguns, what prevents a purchase with shipping to your local FFL?"

Even if it's a handgun, what does it matter when shipping to a FFL of your state? I've done it a number of times. There's no good gun shops in my area, so I frequent a couple over the bridge in Philly. Two rifles were bought and I walked out with them no problem, and a few handguns were shipped to my local FFL transfer guy with no problem.

Earlier this year an interesting thing happened in Alabama, of all places. I was visiting some friends there and he was buying a new gun at Bass Pro. I got to chatting with another sales clerk while they were doing their business and learned that he couldn't sell me a long gun because NJ wasn't 'on the list'. I suspect that it was Pass Pro policy and not state law, because it was a shotgun we were talking about. A Remington 870, stainless, 3", which is legal even in NJ.
 
johnwilliamson062....My understanding is you currently need a storefront open to the public on a regular basis to be approved for an FFL.
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This has never been a requirement.
It is required that you have a premises where you can conduct business legally under city/county/state law, including HOA and zoning restrictions. The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.

There is also no requirement to be open to the public or have public business hours........only that you have business hours (hours you will devote to operating your business).





Having a gunsmith business, web business, or other may also qualify, but you can't just get one by paying the $300 fee and saying you want one. You have to be able to show some actual business that goes beyond an incorporated shell.
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Well, no.
Until you receive your FFL you better not be able to show that you are already doing gunsmithing, sales, etc. ATF will not approve an FFL for personal use, so after you get one they may decline to renew if you have not actually engaged in the firearms business.

There is no requirement to incorporate, if you look at the FFL list you'll note that there are thousands and thousands of sole proprietors.

The initial application fee isn't $300, but $200 for a dealer FFL.
 
You could become a FFL, walk into a store, buy a gun and have it shipped to yourself.
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Actually, he could take it home with him.

However, Dogtown Tom (remember: I'm the roguishly handsome Tom) is correct on the logistical aspects. He has to be in the business of firearms to hold an FFL. And yes, they do check.
 
I'm curious how one might know
The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.
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A few years back, BATF exerted some significant effort to eliminate many of those 'kitchen table' dealers. Thankfully, they did not manage to get them all.

But IIRC BATF was enforcing the 'must meet local zoning' requirements, even if the requirements had changed while the FFL had been in business, and it seems many local governments were not willing to grant variances/use permits.
 
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Would be a significant hassle and cost just to save a few bucks on some pistols or rifles on your trips. And as others stated, a kitchen FFL is possible but you have to be in the business and I suspect the startup costs and overhead would mean you'd have to factor a break even point of a lot of transactions. Probably not worth it, especially since you'd have to be in that business.

I'd simply pay for the gun and have it shipped to your home state FFL, where you previously arranged for him to receive it, fill out the paperwork when you get home, and take your gun. Would cost you probably $50 extra dollars +/-.

No different really than just sitting on your computer, ordering a gun from an online FFL nationwide, and having it shipped to your FFL.
 
My understanding is most of the "kitchen table" FFLs have older licenses. I know a gun show FFL who was pressured by ATF to open a storefront in the last year.
I also know of an FFL who had a storefront that folded, received variances from local government, and was able to convert to a "kitchen table" operation with appointment only service in the last year or so.

A few years ago I went to a "kitchen table" FFL for a transfer who was being forced to remodel his home to accommodate ATFE requests. Adding an office with a separate entry and signage outside. Not cheap.

As I understand it, currently getting approved for an FFL without some sort of investment in a storefront or website is difficult.

Many of the transfer and order FFLs around me own some other retail business open to the public they piggy back their operations off of.

Of course you can't start business before you have the license. Opening a business is a long process and you would almost certainly have some things in place before the license is approved.

I haven't gone through the process. I have considered it many times. I have spoken to the transfer and order FFLs in my area about what the pit falls are. Time and time again I come back to not wanting to make the investments required to be approved.
 
"I'd simply pay for the gun and have it shipped to your home state FFL, where you previously arranged for him to receive it, fill out the paperwork when you get home, and take your gun. Would cost you probably $50 extra dollars +/-. "

Actually, I make out a little better sometimes because the FFL in Philly doesn't charge sales tax shipping out of state to NJ, and my FFL charge is less than what the tax would be.
 
A few years ago I went to a "kitchen table" FFL for a transfer who was being forced to remodel his home to accommodate ATFE requests. Adding an office with a separate entry and signage outside. Not cheap.
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ATF would only care to the extent those were required by local zoning ordinances.

As I understand it, currently getting approved for an FFL without some sort of investment in a storefront or website is difficult.
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Not really. But, local zoning is the biggest obstacle for most who want to operate out of their home. Even if you don't have customers coming to your address, some zoning codes prohibit business use/operation in a home if "inventory" is kept there.

They will not approve a "gun shows only" business plan for some reason. But otherwise, as long as you comply with zoning (and any other local laws) for the licensed location and operate "in the business of buying and selling firearms" (or gunsmithing), ATF must approve the license.
 
I ask because over the years I've been in gun stores in many different states, found some great buys,
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Enhancing ones own collection, a no-no


If you do not intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, but intend to use the FFL for enhancing your own collection, ATF will not approve your application.
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See my above statement. If you don't tell them you are planning to enhance your collection no problem. Problem starts when they are sitting in your house looking over your bound book wanting to know why everything is coming in and nothing is going out and all guns in the safe are tagged as personal items. And that is where the fun begins.
 
Easy, look at the listing of FFL's
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That list gives licensee and address - nothing about commercial location or not.

Seems to me that would require knowing what addresses might be located in a commercial zone - not too hard for me in my local area, but extremely difficult out of my county, and worse out of state. Some also might be neighborhood commercial on a zoning variance, invisible unless one might want to research every entry with its local government(s).

You may be correct with
The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.
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but I suggest that no one without detailed access to the BATF data, beyond the published list, actually is in a position to know.
 
The overwhelming majority of FFL's do not have a "storefront" but operate from their home.
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I know several tabletop FFLs in my area that do transfers and have done so for years. I know at least as many tabletop FFLs as there are storefront FFLs in this region. Sure that's anecdotal, but there are a lot more than you'd think.
 
Prof. Young, since you're in Illinois I'll point out that if you have an 03 FFL the normal waiting periods don't apply to any C&R you buy. That's per state law.
 
johnwilliamson062 My understanding is most of the "kitchen table" FFLs have older licenses.
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FFL's are renewed every three years.
The requirements have not changed very much since 1968, just the enforcement of the regulations.




I know a gun show FFL who was pressured by ATF to open a storefront in the last year.
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In order to receive an FFL, the applicant must have a licensed premises where they can operate legally under all city/state/county/HOA/zoning laws. This allows them to ALSO sell at gunshows.

Any FFL who tells you ATF pressured him to open a storefront is full of crap.


I also know of an FFL who had a storefront that folded, received variances from local government, and was able to convert to a "kitchen table" operation with appointment only service in the last year or so.
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TF doesn't give a rats hiney whether the dealer operates from a storefront, private residence, or the kids treehouse in the back yard.



A few years ago I went to a "kitchen table" FFL for a transfer who was being forced to remodel his home to accommodate ATFE requests.
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Absolute nonsense.
Nothing in federal law or ATF regulations give ATF the authority to demand remodeling of ones home or any other premises. It most likely was a local ordinance or law.



Adding an office with a separate entry and signage outside. Not cheap.
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Neither is required by ATF.
You seem to be confusing and comingling LOCAL business requirements with what you think is required by ATF.

As I understand it, currently getting approved for an FFL without some sort of investment in a storefront or website is difficult.
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Oh good grief. The silliness get deeper.
Getting an FFL is darn easy. Have you ever stopped to think that all these FFL's you know are telling you these tall tales to dissuade you from getting licensed?



I haven't gone through the process.
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I have.
 
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