What do you tell a good friend?

M

Miss Demeanors

New member
Last night I was on the phone with one of my best friends. We grew up together and I consider him like a brother. During our conversation he had said to me "So what's the deal with you and this gun fetish?" He knows all about what had happened in the past and how I was afraid of guns. I told him "Well, I took some time to learn more about guns and during that process I took a liking to them." He says "Please don't tell me you want a gun." I told him yes, eventually I would like to get one. His reply "You don't need a gun." My question was simply WHY NOT? Him:"You have a 5 year old in the house" Me:"and your point would be.....?" Him: "You don't need a gun" Me: "Why don't I need a gun? Am I not allowed to protect myself?" Him: "What are you crazy?" Me:"In some ways yes, but my choice to own a gun is not one of them. Please don't tell me you are an anti.." Him: "I am anti nothing. I have shot guns since we were little, I have a NRA hunting certificate. In fact my dad keeps trying to give me one of his guns every time I go out there, but I don't want it in the house with the little girl around" (He has a 5 year old as well) (Of course I was thinking that his dad can give ME the gun :D) Me:"Well that is your choice, I respect that. But my choice is to eventually get one for myself for protection." Him: "Protection?? Why are you so paranoid?" Me:"Ummm paranoid?? Because I want to protect myself and my girl that makes me paranoid?" Him:"You don't need a gun." Me:"well you still have not given me one good reason why I do not need one." Him :(once again)"You don't need one!" Me:"WHY NOT???? Give me a valid answer, you are failing to answer my question" Him:"You shouldn't have a gun in the house with a child in it." Me:"Do you think I am going to leave it loaded in her toy box? You've known me for 25 years, are you saying I am not responsible?" Him:"No, you are a very responsible person, I am sure you would keep it out of her hands. But you don't need one" Me:"For the last time please give me one legit answer as to why I should not own one when I am ready." Him:"Oh sure you will lock it up, then the little one finds the key and gets ahold of it. Kids find their way into everything. She will get it and something terrible would happen" Me:"Would I take even the slightest risk of anything EVER happening to my little girl? I am perfectly aware of what can happen, you that. I would also plan on teaching her about it and not keeping it a big secret. She already knows the Eagle Eddie rules, and when I do get one she will be further educated. Now why shouldn't I have a gun?" Him:"You are just full of answers aren't you?" Me:"Not really, just stating the facts." Him:"You are one of those gun nuts aren't you? What is wrong with you? Have you gone crazy? You sound brainwashed or something, this is just unlike you to be talking like this. You don't need a gun." Me:"I do not see wanting to protect myself as brainwashed. It seems to me that you are brainwashed in thinking females should be helpless. Is that what this comes down to, I shouldn't own a gun because I am a female??" Him:"Well yes and no. For one, you live in the suburbs, what are your chances of something happening where you will need a gun?" (Blood pressure rising at this point) ME:"So you think because I live in the burbs nothing is going to happen here? Yeah, then why has our car been broken into twice? How about the gang bangers that hang around the area? Oh wait! THey are burb gang bangers, they won't cause any trouble. HAHAH If you are one of those people that think it can't happen to me, then I really feel sorry for you." Him:"Listen to you! You are completely out of your mind. You don't need a gun!" Me:"I'm sorry but I can not, for the life of me, see why that is crazy. I think its perfectly sane if you ask me. If someone should break into my home then you are suggesting I should just let whatever happens happen?" Him:"Get a dog then! Get an alarm if you are so paranoid." (I just started laughing hysterically at that comment) Him:"have you told your dad about this and what you are thinking?" Me:"No" Him:"How about your mom?" Me:"not really , no" Him:"So if everyone agrees with me then it is obviously a problem." Me:"Why must others control my actions or my thoughts? The reason I haven't mention this to my parents is the fact that I would be going through this EXACT conversation. I really don't want to deal with that at this point. My choice, my life. If you don't want one that's fine by me, you don't see me knocking at you because you don't want to take control of your own life or that of your family. What would you do if someone breaks into your home and attacks your pregnant wife or your daughter?" Him:"Oh that will never happen I will kick his a**." Me:"Okay fine, thats your choice if you think you can do that. But what about me? I sure in hell can't kick some 6 foot 200 pound guys a** in." Him:"By the time someone breaks in your door, you will hear it and have plenty of time to escape through the back door or out a window." Me:"Well sure that may or may not be a choice. I don't want to shoot someone if there are other options but this seems to be taking a HUGE risk if I opt to do that. How am I going to climb out a second story window with a 45 pound kid in my hand? Lets be real here." Him:"Your nuts you know that? You don't need a gun."

At this point I just ended that topic and headed toward the Advils. But I know this subject is not going to end. How do you get through to someone like this without making an enemy or bad feelings toward eachother? I feel having a child in the home gives me even more reason to want to protect ourselves. Does this make me a bad Mom because I eventually want to own a gun and not live in fear? He is not against guns either, in fact he is going hunting this year. Is he only seeing the sporting side to guns and not the 'family protection tool' side? Why is it that so many males have a problem with a female and a gun? I don't get it. If I heard this from someone else it really wouldn't phase me a bit, but this is a good buddy of mine. I don't want this to come between our friendship, I just want him to respect my opinion. How is one to do this without getting into an argument? I am going to see him Saturday night along with a few other friends. I just *know* they are all going to gang up on me and try to convince me I am not thinking logically. Any suggestions on how to make point without sounding like an idiot?

Sorry this is so long, but this is the only place I can talk about this without being struck down. Thanks gun nut buddies :D. I feel more at home here than at my real home LOL. Sad isn't it?

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Sandys' Homepage
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
 
Miss D:
You can't. You can't tell anyone something when they refuse to listen. You posed several scenarios and all he gave were rationalizations. Stop. Don't keep trying. You're wasting your breath, and time. Simply agree to disagree on it, and avoid the topic. If he's a friend you want to keep, it's not worth the pain. If he tries to bring it up, a "Let's not go there again." is probably the best course. I hope he never has to prove that he;ll kick some A if someone comes into his home. I've yet to see someone that can run 800 feet per second, and leaving a little girl daddyless is a terrible consequence of a narrow mind.

..Joe
 
I am sorry to say that I had a conversation like that with a childhood friend (he's a cop in Russia now). He felt that if someone wanted to kill me he'd succeed no matter what so guns aren't relevant. He has a Makarov issued to him on the job but can't take it home.

In talking further, I found that he has killed people for entertainment (plinking at refugees with an SVD while in the Army) and that he'd like the Final Solution to be applied to the whole of the Chechen population.

I had ended the conversation at that time and had not called him since. Some gaps are too deep to bridge and, had I even succeeded, I would not feel safe with such a person near me. My regrettable opinion MissD is that your friend is to be treated same was as rabid animals are: not his fault, but he's not fit company anyway. He is a moron in the clinical meaning of the word. I'd simply refrain from initiating or supporting contact from now on.

Or you could point him to my questionnaire...but I do not think that any reason would sway that guy as he is not in the habit of thinking about the information presented. At best, he'd go along blindly and that's not much of an improvement.

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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
That must really hurt.

I wouldn't talk about it to him again, at least not until the sore feelings have healed.

Women with guns. Kinda phallic, isn't it? The man as loses "something" with that image. :D

Anyway, from what you write, HE's not making any sense, just broken-record statements.

After I bought my first pistol, I started a mini-arsenal. My gun safe seems a little small now!
 
Ooohh...tough situation. Maybe one of the other friends will listen to reason, and join your side. My only suggestion is to in a friendly manner, ask him if he's always been a sexist, and why he thinks men should be allowed to protect themselves and women shouldn't.
We here are certainly glad that you won't have to rely on someone else to protect yourself and your daughter.
Keep it up!
Bill

p.s. I was writing my reply as the above two were also. I'd have to agree...."Let's not go there again" is the best answer, if they will abide by your request. If they won't, the're not that great of friends. It's hard to end a lifetime friendship, but if they won't drop it, this may be what happens anyway.

[This message has been edited by Bill in NM (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
You can't. The guy is a sexist ("Your a GIRRRLLLL, you can't have a gun!") anti-gun bigot.

The best way to handle it (IMHO) is to say "I don't want to discuss the issue with you" and leave it at that. If you want to keep him as a friend, that is.

People like that can't be made to see. You MIGHT try supplying him with FACTUAL statistical information, but he probably wouldn't read it.

YMMV.

[This message has been edited by Dennis Olson (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
I'm living with my parents (saving money to but a house, I swear). My mother is blindly fearful of accidents with firearms. My father, a retired Army NCO, believes that no civilian needs anything other than hunting/target weapons or a medium caliber revolver for personal defense.

Me, I'm a pro-NRA robot who has a gun fetish--that's the attitude. In my own mind, I believe personal/family protection is both a right and obligation. Do I NEED an M1A or a Mossberg 590 or a Para-Ordnance P-13? I hope never to find out, but it's sure nice to have the option, and they are fun. I also appreciate my responsibility to secure them and train in their proper use.

Blind anti-gun sentiment seems to be everywhere. I hope you can sustain the friendship if you desire to, but bottom line it's your life and your beliefs which your "friend" should appreciate, having respect for you and your decisions. You're not alone.

SA Scott
 
Move to Texas. :D

Seriously, while I don't know if your friend is consciously sexist, he is being sexist.

If you're on the second floor, there is no way for you to retreat safely.

Now, I may be being sexist, but there is no way I'm going hand-to-hand with a 200 pound, prison-trained gorilla. If six foot, martial artist me isn't going to do it, I see no reason why you should even consider it.

People have been safely storing guns around children for at least the period the United States has been in existence. I see no reason why the last 8 years should have made any difference.

I'm sorry, but I would imagine that your friend has been quite busy gossiping to your family and any friends he knows. Stand by to catch a rash of hell.

WE're here for you.

LawDog
 
For the sake of the friendship I wouldn't bring it up, but if he insists on making it a topic of conversation I wouldn't back down either. He may not listen, but someone else in the group might be willing to listen and learn; I never pass up a chance to talk to someone that seems to be honestly interested in my point of view. It is usually pretty easy to tell the difference between the open and close minded: the open-minded will ask you genuine questions while the close-minded will tell you how you should live your life (and somehow it is always by their standards...imagine that).

Just stay cool and logical!

Jack
 
Tough one. I guess it depends on weather you want him as a friend. Personally, as an adult, I have rarely accepted anybody who wanted to change my views and force me to follow his/her beliefs. I would treat him as I do my family members who have chose to offend/ridicule me. I ignore them totally. When the occasion calls to interact with them I do so cordially. Aside from that I could care less where they are how they are doing or what their opinions are. I have tried to talk to them and point out the facts of the matter, but to no avail. Their argument has always been, but the TV sais that there is such a rampage in gun violence and I just cant see a need to contribute to it. Same BS no matter what the counter, kind of like your broken record friend.

My views re friends are taken somewhat badly by my family. I consider them as much of a neccesity as a hole in the head. They are a wonderful bonus to my life, but far be they from being considered a necessity. As such I dont have a problem discarding those who decide that my core views are unacceptable and need to be changed.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by TAZ (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
My sympathies, Miss D!

I hope you know not all guys are threatened by women with guns. In fact, my wonderful g/f (gotta put that in there in case she's reading this) :D is into 1911-style .45s, which she shoots pretty well I might add. I couldn't be more thrilled!

I agree with LawDog. Move down here, where it's relatively sane, even though those darn Californians keep moving here and bringing their strange ideas about how gun laws should work with them (Calif. TFLers carefully excepted of course) :) Also, I wouldn't think of trying to go hand-to-hand with someone who broke in. Even if they aren't some hardened ex-con, there's no telling what weapons they may be carrying, especially when it's dark. Besides, I wouldn't want to get close enough and possibly get bloody with a former inmate when the HepC and HIV rate in prison can approach 80% in some places. Blech :p


[This message has been edited by Gopher a 45 (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
Miss D,

That's a tough situation. You probably won't be able to avoid the issue, so here are a few suggestions for dealing with it:

1) Stay cool. Having someone blast a hysterical lecture at you and argue unfairly is very upsetting, but if you get emotional yourself, you're just feeding the flames. The ranter will need to do some venting before he's calm enough to listen to a rebuttal. If you maintain your composure, you can help him realize how foolish he's being.

2) Keep the discussion focused. If you bring up side issues, or get distracted by his side issues, you're not going to reach any sort of resolution.

3) Keep in mind that if he's making an assertion ("Guns are dangerous", "You're crazy", "Your child's going to die a horrible death", et cetera) the burden of proof is on him. You don't have to assert anything yourself; all you have to do is pick apart his reasoning. Rather than saying something like "You're wrong" or "That's stupid", use questions like "What makes you think that?" and "Why would that happen?" to make him think about his own mistakes.

4) Beware of loaded questions. In the original conversation, his use of the term "fetish" right at the start should have warned you what was coming. Don't interrupt, but don't let something like that go unchallenged, either.

5) If things get ugly, give him a token victory to end the argument. Say something like, "You've given me a lot to think about. I'm going to do some research on this". Then come back here and we'll help you with your research. :D

By the way, mentioning that you've gotten advice on this matter over the Internet probably won't help. Those who don't use the Net tend to regard it as weird and mysterious; add that attitude to gun bigotry and they'll think you've been brainwashed by the the cyber gun cult at TFL!

If all else fails, keep in mind that you aren't the one who soured the friendship. You have a right to stand up to bullies, even if they're your friends.
 
Now this is all a true breath of fresh air! :) THANK YOU!!

I am aware that all men are not like that and for those of you that have wives and GF's that shoot, more power to you! :)

I really don't plan on bringing the topic up, I never do because I know exactly what I am going to hear, so I don't bother. But if someone else brings it up, I feel the need to defend my reasons. We don't hate eachother, or really we aren't even mad at eachother at all, I just don't like knowing that someone that close to me feels I am crazy for wanting to protect myself and my little one. Now if I had said I want to go get a gun and rob some banks, well then he would have good reason to say this stuff. But obviously that is not my reason or intentions. It just boggles my mind why people think that way and like I said he is far from being an anti. I wouldn't be surprised if I get a call from my parents either, that will be coming soon. I don't care though, I am hovering around 30 years old now and there is no need to follow my parents rules anymore. I am just sick of defending myself to my friends and family for my beliefs. I don't harass anyone else for what they believe in, so why do they choose to make my life a living hell? I also HATE that feeling of being 'ganged up on' everyone is right and I am wrong. I am praying my brother in law is coming Saturday, he is the only one that agrees with me and I am sure he will take my side should this come down to some big debate. Why my life should be discussed to begin with is beyond me. Texas is sounding better and better each day! LOL I don't want to lose any friends over this, I just want them to mind their own business and stay out of mine. I really think the only issue he has is the fact that I have a little one in the house. If I didn't I bet he wouldn't say anything. He, as a child, was brought up in a home around guns.....which boggles my mind even more. :confused:

Well I am not going to let anyone talk me down from this BUT I do think I am going to buy some stock in Advil :D

Kathryn......LMAO! :D

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Sandys' Homepage
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
 
I am just sick of defending myself to my friends and family for my beliefs. I don't harass anyone else for what they believe in, so why do they choose to make my life a living hell? I also HATE that feeling of being 'ganged up on' everyone is right and I am wrong.

Miss D,

Welcome to the "gun culture".
 
Miss D,

Next time the subject comes up you might condsider changing the subject from whether you "need" a gun to "wanting" a gun. When you say you "need" a gun, the anti's probably think you're in you kind of state of total paranoia of the bogey man. I don't think that's the image you're tryinig to convey.

On the other hand, saying you "want" a gun has diferent implications. He'll ask why you want one. To that question you can go any number of routes. 1. "Because it's my right (or duty) to have one, and every good American ought to have one. I just want to exercise my freedoms." 2. "Because the government doesn't want me to have one, and that makes me a little bit nervous for my freedom." 3. "I want a gun because it pisses off people like you when people like me own guns." 4. "I want a gun so I don't have to be dependent on others for my safety. I would like the option to be able to protect myself from criminals. Futhermore lots of criminals wear badges." 5. "who are you to judge the merit of the things I want in my own home? Do I go around telling you what you ought to keep and judge you based on the things you want?"

IMHO you'll never win the "need" argument until something happens where you actually did "need" it. But then it's too late! It'll be a lot harder for him to argue against what you want.

Maybe it's just symantics, but it makes sense to me.
 
Miss D,

We're proud of you here at TFL. Why do you need a gun? It's a mother's right to protect her child and you're just responding to your instinctual nature.

Gary
 
Miss Demeanors,
Your friend says that he is afraid that your little girl will find the gun and a tragedy will happen. Yet, he says that he has shot guns since he was little, and a tragedy did not happen to him or his siblings. He's living proof that Kids can be taught to respect and handle guns properly. Oh, I forgot, he's a guy, and your child is a girl :rolleyes:

Not all guys are like him. My wife shoots with me, and someday, I hope our daughters will join us. I understand the animals out there, and I WANT my wife and daughters armed. Teaching them to shoot and defend themselves is an act of love.

If the topic is brought up again, ask him, that if guns are so dangerous, then why didn't he or his siblings find his dad's guns while growing up, and cause a tragedy? If he is a true friend, he'd want you to be able to protect yourself.

David
 
Sandy...
Remember this: Anyone who posits a "needs" based arguement/debate/discussion is a fool, and there are no exceptions.

Humans only "need" food, air and depending upon climate, shelter. All else is luxury.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise to his own conceit. Proverbs 26:4
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Proverbs 26:11[/quote]

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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