What do you know about the shooting spree in Salt Lake City?

Gwinnydapooh

Retired Screen Name
Here's all I know:
At noon today there was a report on Fox News that a "sniper" had shot seven people in Salt Lake City. At the time he was still on the loose and they didn't know anything else.
At 12:20, when I left for school, the man had been trapped inside the Family History Library of the Church of Latter-Day Saints by the Salt Lake City SWAT. He had not been captured and there was supposedly reason to believe there might be two BG's.

The description of the original event that was given at the time, from a 911 call, was as follows:

A "white male in camouflage clothing" and wearing a backpack walked into the Family History Library and opened fire, wounding at least 5-6 people. Apparently, many people got away as the man was trying to retrieve more ammunition from the backpack. Eventually the police arrived and sent in SWAT, who managed to "contain" the BG in the building. At that point they cut away and I had to leave. I wanted to post this earlier but I forgot about the UBB upgrade.

What do other forumites know about this horrifying affair?
 
The 71 year old gunman entered the Family History Library and opened up on library patrons. He killed an elderly patron and a church security guard before he was killed by police. He also wounded seven others. The gunman was a schitzo who was not taking his medicine.

The mayor has already gone on record with the promise to come up with ways to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

An interesting note is the state legislature amended the state CCW laws to allow churches to ban concealed weapons an their premises. Somewhat ironic, don't you think? Those who do this kind of thing don't care what the law is. Think I'll pack in church this Sunday in protest to these dumb laws. (The new law is not in effect yet)

As a side note, police thought that a Ryder truck parked two blocks away from teh shooting contained a OK City type bomb and was somehow connected to the shooting. Turned out to be a false call.
 
Thanks MGB.
It's an ugly world. My cooperating teacher says it's because people blow off the power of satanism and evil. Whatever, it's terrible.
Too bad nobody was armed. I wonder if even that security guard was carrying anything but a radio?
 
The security guard was probably just carrying a radio and perhaps handcuffs. I was confronted while carrying concealed by a security guard once. After we straightened out his misperception, I suggested he complete certification for carrying a firearm on the job or find another line of work. Unarmed security guards are nothing but targets of opportunity for criminals.
 
Interesting. Being from rural VA, I have never been to a church that had or needed a security guard. Are these Church Security Forces common in your area? -SCatt
 
Swingcatt - this wasn't your normal church, but a HUGE geneaology library. You see, the Mormon church believes one can be converted after death, which has led to the largest collection of historical genealogy in the world. Kind of neat because, even if you're not a Mormon, you can research your own family.

Alas, my father's family's records died in the Chicago fire, so everything before that is speculation. I haven't started on my mother's side yet.

The big tragedy here is that innocent people died, and the mayor is already calling for more "gun control." A shame nobody else in the library was armed - could have ended this much sooner, and shown the world why concealed carry works.
 
Motive unknown as three die in LDS library shooting

By Paul Foy
Associated Press writer

A 71-year-old man with a history of schizophrenia calmly walked into the LDS Church's Family History Library on Thursday and methodically began shooting people with a small-caliber handgun.
Before it was over, the gunman had killed a church
security guard and a female library patron, wounded five others, including a police officer, and was himself fatally shot by police.
The man, wearing a long jacket, cap and baggy pants, was identified by police as Sergei Babarin of Central City, a married man with children who had a criminal record. Neighbors said he was a Russian native often frustrated by his broken English.
"He is apparently schizophrenic and hasn't been taking his medication," Mayor Deedee Corradini said at a late-afternoon news conference. "He didn't say anything. He just came in and started shooting people," said Margaret Kane, who was at the world's largest genealogical library with her husband at 10:30 a.m.when the man opened fire at people in the lobby.
"He just looked intent on what he was doing. He came to do what he was doing," said Kane, who huddled under a desk in the first floor research area as the man roamed the lobby and adjacent classrooms, seemingly firing at random.
"I did not hear him say anything. He didn't call out, no names or anything. He just kept his hand held out pointing at people," said Kane, from Olympia, Wash. The gunman reloaded and continued firing, she said.
Police Chief Ruben Ortega said the first officers arrived two minutes after a 10:32 a.m. emergency call and soon were involved in a gun battle with Babarin. He barricaded himself in an office and again exchanged gunfire with officers.
"That's when he was mortally wounded," Ortega said.
According to neighbors, Babarin was a native of Russia who spoke very little English and had occasional run-ins with them. "He would get frustrated sometimes because he couldn't communicate," said Diane L'Etoile, manager of the senior citizens' building where Babarin lived with his wife for the past nine years.
L'Etoile said she and the building's 107 residents were "kind of shook up" over the incident. No one there knew Babarin as schizophrenic, she said. It was not immediately known if he was a U.S. citizen.
By late afternoon, police dismissed their earlier reports that two other men tied to the gunman had been detained. They also said the gunman apparently had no connection to a yellow moving truck parked three blocks from the library and found to contain two 55-gallon drums of gasoline.
The truck owner, who had been at the library earlier Thursday and argued with an employee, was questioned at length, said Ortega, but apparently was not involved in the shootings.
At one point police blew a hole in the side of the truck to inspect the interior.
Ortega said Babarin was arrested and charged with assault and carrying a concealed weapon after a 1995 fight at the ZCMI department store in downtown Salt Lake. He was carrying a .22-caliber semiautomatic pistol then, but it was not clear the gun was the same one he used Thursday.
Babarin's wife told investigators he had not been taking his medication for schizophrenia and each day would walk a dozen-odd blocks from their home to the State Capitol and to Temple Square, Ortega said.
Kane said she was "scared to death" when Babarin was firing his .22-caliber automatic, emptying one clip and part of another. "We all read about these people who go around shooting. There's nothing you can do. You just try to make yourself as small as possible."
Lyman Platt, a genealogist, said the gunman entered the library and quickly fired off a dozen rounds.
"He came in the lobby and shot a lady in the head and two or three other men," Platt said.
Said Jacqueline Nelson, a researcher who was working on the first floor: "We heard a pop and somebody said 'Everybody get down.' There were 10 or 12 pops and somebody yelled 'Somebody's shooting!"
Shots were fired as much as 45 minutes after officers arrived on the scene, at first leading police to believe there might be a second gunman.
Seventeen people on the second floor locked themselves inside when the shooting began — Kane was one of them — and were evacuated unharmed early in the afternoon as SWAT teams combed the building.
Babarin, who had exchanged gunfire with police, was taken out of the building to an ambulance parked in front of a nearby restaurant about 90 minutes after the first shots were fired.
Paramedics at first believed he might be wired with an explosive and the area was evacuated. Police Sgt. Ken Hanson said he died in the ambulance and was not carrying explosives.
The five wounded included SWAT team officer Brad Davis, who was treated at the scene for a grazing hand wound described by police as "very, very minor."
The church security guard, who was armed but had no chance to shoot back, was identified as Donald Thomas, 62, West Jordan, who was shot in the chest and died at LDS Hospital. The second fatal victim was identified by television reports as Patricia Irene Frengs, 55, Pleasant Hill, Calif.
Theda Weston, 71, of Laketown, Rich County, was in serious condition at University of Utah Hospital with a head wound.
Weston's daughter, Chris Webb, 45, also of Laketown, was in fair condition at Salt Lake Regional Medical Center with a gunshot wound to the shoulder.
Nellie Leighton, 80, Oakland, Calif., underwent surgery at the same hospital for a gunshot wound to the cheek and was in fair condition.
Police said a 24-year-old woman was in stable condition at another hospital with a bullet wound.
"It's been a tragic day for our city," said Corradini."Our hearts go out to the families."
The library, the largest genealogical library in the world, is directly across the street from Temple Square, site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Salt Lake Temple and Tabernacle. According to a
church Web site, it has more than 2 million rolls of microfilm copies of census and other records from more than 100 countries.
An international genealogical convention had attracted heavy traffic to the library, which has two floors below ground level and three above. Some 250 people — patrons and employees — are in the building on a typical day.
"We very much regret these tragic circumstances," the church's governing First Presidency said in a statement read by Bruce Olsen, managing director of public affairs for the church. "We do not have all of the particulars, but our hearts reach out to the innocent victims of this terrible tragedy and to their families."
The church has been involved in genealogy since its founding nearly 170 years ago. Church officials said the library would not re-open until Monday.


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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
It is too bad the mayor can't see the problem here. Not guns... but Mentally Ill persons.

We need to ban the insane? More Sanity Control?

Lets start "Sanity Control, Inc."

The obvious solution to this in hind site is as mentioned before:
1. More law abiding people carrying concealed weapons.
2. Training and Arming ALL security staff people at every level. The arguement here is that security folks are the dregs that didn't graduate from high school. Well, if you are only offering minimum wages - your not going to get the best people. Here is what to do.
Take the starting salary figures and TRIPLE IT. Then take the requirements and DOUBLE THEM. Give the security the power to arrest and all other police powers -limiting them to certain areas as needed for duty of course. Give them protection as a cop gets. (You can't "resist arrest" from security - you only assualt them.) Make security a profession to be proud of - make it some thing to work for. You will soon get people just as good as or better than the Police Officers who would respond. You will need much less police response as the security will then be able to handle most situations that the police would have had to respond to.

Had the security officer here been trained properly, and armed (even concealed to keep a low profile) this would have ended much differently.

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"There is no Spoon"
 
Back in 91 or 92 we had a similar situation at a community mental health center I worked at. A paranoid schizophrenic stopped taking his medicine, decided he was JFK, and that the center was holding POW'S secretly. Well, he got a shotgun and came to free them. One worker dead, several wounded-two very critically, and the guy almost got into the cafeteria at lunchtime.

It's a fairly common thing for schizophrenics not to take their medicine. There is a solution. Haldol deconate is a long acting injection given about once a month. Give this to schizophrenics who have difficulty taking their medicine regularly. If they miss an appointment then go find them. If they do it continuously put an electronic bracelet on them.

We've got to find some way to control the mentally ill or gun control advocates will preempt us. We all know what their answer is.
 
All this talk of controlling the mentally ill terrifies me. We all know of misdiagnoses that have committed people who were sane. I must vehemently protest the suggestion of ankle bracelets of schizophrenics who have never proven to be dangerous. Now, as far as the mentally ill who have proven to be dangerous, I say try them as criminals. But realize that psychology is a very young science in which nothing is certain, and "controlling the mentally ill" sounds a little like Hitler.
 
My comment about banning the Mentally Ill was tounge-in-cheek sarcasim. Like Banning Cars. MI Control? Bigger problem than a open barrel of worms!

There are no easy answers. But consider this - most violent offenders are claiming the INSANE DEFENSE...

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"There is no Spoon"
 
Kodiac - I hear ya. The most annoying thing is that the more outrageous the crime, the more likely one is going to get off on an insanity plea. Want to off your boss? Well, kill everyone in the office - you'll do time in a padded cell, likely. Then get off in five or so years when you've been "cured."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Kane said she was "scared to death" when Babarin was firing his .22-caliber automatic, emptying one clip and part of another. "We all read about these people who go around shooting. There's nothing you can do. You just try to make yourself as small as possible."[/quote]
It is a shame this mentality is so common. As I read about these people, as Ms.Kane says she has, it makes me all the more sure that to "make yourself as small as possible" and shoot back is what you CAN do.
Hey guys..... be aware, this stuff usually comes in doses.

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You beat me to that quote, Radarman. Of course, in Illinois she's right, as far as legal options go anyway. I, for instance, don't carry a gun, even though I'd prefer it. If I got caught with it, I'd be a felon and I'd never get a job as an elementary teacher. Besides, I could never carry it at work.

Sign at the Illinois state line:
"Civil rights not permitted past this point. Please check all civil and god-given rights at the border--your rights will be allowed to you by the government as needed."

Maybe I should rethink this, but I hate to give up a teaching career. It'd just be one more slot opened up for another teacher who thinks she's a babysitter . . . .
I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO MAKE THAT F****** CHOICE! It kills me that I have to choose between my rights or my life.

Sorry about ranting, but that made me VERY, VERY ANGRY. Anybody know what it takes to get a teacher's certificate in Vermont?
 
Gwinnydapooh,
I am originally from Vermont, believe me they are loosing it there also. Of course my dad called this week about a H&R 922 he picked up of someone this week, I didn't even get into it but I am sure there was no permits involved in the "trade" and he mentioned it would be a nice expendable piece to throw under the front seat. Like try that in Massachusetts, a state you can spit on from Vermont.
My dads best friend is back in Mass. and at the age of 70 is selling all his handguns and rifles except one of each (long arm, handgun, and shotgun) as when he dies he cannot pass them on (something about the state gets them??) so he is going for the cash, and the state will get some of that too!!
Man, what woulda happened if Ms. Kane had double tapped that poor guy who didn't get his medacine. Probably wouldn't a seen it on the news, eh? Speaking of which that reminds me of a story for another thread........
 
The incident was reported here in Perth on TV last night.

Unfortunately, there were a couple of Australian women (the "blue-rinse Mafia") involved. The media loved it when of them said, "It was just like Port Arthur!". (For those who don't know, the shooting at port Arthur in Tasmania was what led to the confiscation and banning of certain firearms across Australia.)

The media played that section again and again on every update during the night. It sickened me to see the newsreaders, po-faced and bleating about "gun control".

For the first time, I feel like selling my guns and just giving it up!!

(No doubt I'll feel better after a beer ;))
Bruce
 
Selling your guns and giving up?
Bruce... What you need to do is to goto a gunshow and buy another gun!
THAT will make you feel better!
Try a .22 minirevolver for your keychain... Or go the other way and buy a "Big F***ing Gun" that has more horsepower than a monster truck.

Refreshment for your soul. :)

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"There is no Spoon"
 
Rather than give up, teach someone else to shoot. I'd rather have more like-minded people around, even if they do not get guns of their own at once.

Besides, re-read http://ddb.com/RKBA/firepower.html on what happens when you and others surrender. When you surrender, fighting tanks with bolt rifles becomes a choice to long for.

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Cornered Rat
ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
"Turn in your guns, get a a free tattoo on your arm"
 
I was stuck at a light right next to the building. Woman and several kids came running out and hid behind a marble sign on the lawn.There was a Temple guard directing traffic. I offered to help and was told to move on.
The guard was armed and did'nt have a chance to fire.I have to say the cops from all kinds of dept's responded in the minimum of time.
I saw 6 officerswith ar-15 and shotguns within 6 minutes
 
Latest press info was that he was armed with a Ruger .22 semi-auto, similar to the one taken from him previously.
 
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