WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK OF-"THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL?

Average BGs, if such exist, are COWARDS. They look for an EASY mark, with little or no potential for, or ability to fight back. When they face armed resistance, they go elsewhere-usually in a hurry. Surely most of you here are familiar with Professor Gary Kleck's study? You know, anywhere from 1/4-3/4 of a million of us display armed resistance annually. How few of us are actually forced to fire our guns?
Now, the military trains you to kill, or be killed. ALL military forces do. The soldier who has NO interest in the field of combat surely maintains an interest in his(or her) OWN self-preservation. That's the determination of which I spoke.
Yes, there certainly are some ruthless BGs out there, I know. But, those are the exception, thankfully, NOT the rule. Remember folks, CCW has been shown to cause a reduction in violent. person-to-person, crimes in the states where it has passed. Seems that some of the scum did get the word. :)
 
1911 Ford,
I NEVER said I wouldn't shoot a .40! When did I ever say i did??
I own a .40 thank you. I was merely saying I wouldn't shoot a 185 in a long gun. Where the hell did all the rest of that come from? Your imagination?

------------------
"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"
 
Folks, I know first hand from work that there are a lot of criminally mentally ill people walking the streets. Many are also involved with drugs and alcohol. They are truly NUTS! I think these people are more dangerous than soldiers on a battlefield because they are ticking time bombs.

I think the best way to measure the effectiveness of handgun bullets on humans is to evaluate their effectiveness on game. I know people generally feel confident hunting deer with .45s, but not 9mms. Furthermore, the 45 has a history of being a good stopper with hardball, the other calibers have a history of failure. So, while hollow points are great, when you don't have them you better select the larger diameter. Since I can't afford a bunch of expensive corbon 9mm stuff, I feel comfortable with cheap .45 hardball in a pinch. I couldn't say that about 9mm ball. Still, I would prefer .45 JHPs.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1911Ford:
. If you are using under a 5" barrel and shooting HP's I would suggest that you use 185 grain loads. Not sure about the 200 grain loads. I have never shot them.
[/quote]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swatman:
1911Ford, I would NEVER carry a 185 grain .45 in a 5 inch barrel[/quote]

Guess it came from the same place that you came up with this.
 
Lessee . . .

45 ACP, 185 gr. JHP in a five inch bbl. Most of these are cranked up to +P loads at about 1150 fps. Shoot this at the "standard" 7 yard assailant distance into a five gallon plastic paint bucket stuffed tightly with saturated newspaper. Saturated newspaper tighly packed is generally recognized as a "wet pack" with similar characteristics as a bullet in a human torso.

The 185 gr. JHP makes a 1/2" hole in the plastic lid, a 1 1/2" entry "wound" in the wet-pack, a fist size exit wound, and the bullet buries itself several inches in the solid dirt bank behind the bucket.

I don't want to try surviving a hit like that.

OK, now an analogy . . . take a good solid blow in the chest with a baseball -- solid enough to knock you off your feet. Now take that same energy and put it behind a marble.

The baseball will knock you down but probably not penetrate. The marble -- moving a whole lot faster to result in the same energy -- will pass right though you and keep on moving.

John Moses Browning introduced the 1911 in a smaller caliber and the Army rejected it. In 1911 pistol bullets ran 600 fps and were not sophisticated hollow-points. The Army wanted the "knock down" power of the 45 cal bullet as was then being used in the Colt SAA revolver. So Browning invented the 45 ACP.
Rules of warfare prohibit JHP loads. The FMJ is what you get. A nice, large diameter FMJ has more "knock down" power than a smaller diameter bullet. The 9mm FMJ is a notorious over-penetrator. Once the bullet leaves the body it no longer dissipates energy into the target.

Bottom line . . . ANY bullet that you get shot with is going to sting like hell. A larger diameter bullet will create a larger wound channel and more resultant blood loss. Real good chance that ancillary tissue damage will be greater from a large diameter projectile that dumps its energy into the target than from a small projectile that passes through the target and down-range. This is the whole design theory behind JHP and high-power hunting bullets.

If you're stuck with FMJ because of the "rules" then choose the large diameter bullet. If you get to use designer ammo and crunch energy data, pick the one that dumps the most energy into the target with nominal effective penetration. 45 ACP does a fine job in that regard.

Finally, bad guys on drugs are often so cranked out of their heads that they don't know what hit them. You need to physically incapacitate them -- lower their blood pressure by blowing their heart to bits or creating a deep, wide wound channel and a lot of blood loss. Deprive them of blood oxygen by collapsing a lung or two. Interfer with skeletal support by breaking a few bones. Dissconnect their wiring by severing a some nerves . . . or, all of the above.

A great big fat bullet with a lot of energy does a good job in that regard. But you have to get it to the target.
 
Quoted from Mogwli:

2. Given the following statistic:

For the same time period, (43 days in 1991) 8364 Americans died from Motor
Vehicle Accidents, Falls, Poison, Drowning, Ingestion of food, Firearms,and
Poison.

I think that the safest sidearm of all is.... The NAA .22 because it will not
drag you down while you are swimming, and is less likely than a full sized
1911 to chafe you while driving causing road rage and a higher likelihood of
getting in an auto accident.


LOL, I just spit my drink all over my computer laughing. :D

------------------
Order your TFL shirts and hats now! www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=37865

[This message has been edited by Correia (edited July 15, 2000).]
 
Have to go with rick and jack on this one.

Only two constants bullet diameter and weight. Velocity is a constantly diminishing value. Why all the hp talk because small bullets need to expand to to make them bigger, like the 45. Why not go with the 45 and let it expand even bigger? None here would say that their wonder nine is just as effective as a 450-600grain 12 ga slug would they? Similar speed just a lot larger and heavier. That just MHO. I dont shoot smaller than 45 dia. handguns if possible.

Nearly no one would say the same about rifle calibre's. Go to afrika with a small diameter say 243 and hunt with it, if it were legal you would probably get killed by the game sooner or later though in theory it can kill all game on that continent.
 
When in doubt, empty your magazine. I would not count on anything short of a 155mm Howitzer to stop a BG with one shot. Shoot, reload, shoot some more. Bigger is better, more is better, accurate is better. Shoot lots of big bullets in the right place. When the smoke clears then you can squeegee through the pulp and decide which bullet actually killed the BG if you are so inclined.
My copper Lincolns.

------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
An Apple a Day will make you healthy, wealthy, and wise.... :)


As Clint Smith is fond of saying, "If a bad guy is going to kill me with my own gun, he'll have to beat me to death with it, because it will be EMPTY!"


This caliber nonsense is for people with ego problems. I shoot .45, .40, and 9mm. You hit the right spot, the BG goes down. You don't, the BG keeps on truckin'. BTW, if you can hit him 3 times accurately with a 9mm in the time it takes to get your sights realigned on the .45, who's looking better now? 230 gr vs 124+124+124gr?

Best,
Westtexas
 
Its BS. I know of one good cop who died after he put 4 rounds of 45 hardball into a badguy who did not die but rather emptied a magazine of 7.62 killing a great cop who risked his life and died saving two other police officers. I know of more failures with 45 ball than success.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 45automan:
WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK OF-"THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL?[/quote]

I think you are spending too much time reading Chuck Taylor "War Stories".

Do you know the difference between a fairy tale and a war story?

A fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time..." and a war story begins with "Now this ain't no sh!t..."!

Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see (or read) in a gun periodical.

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.

[This message has been edited by blades67 (edited July 15, 2000).]
 
All the guys I've seen hit with .45 ACP hardball went down and didn't get back up. Regarding draftees wanting to go home??? The NVA was full of draftees. These guys walked thru a 1000 miles of jungles and mountain just to come and play with us. Tough b*stards. They knew the only way they were going home was in a box or by defeating us.
 
If you know you're going to be in a gunfight, don't go.

Thats not an option in my line of work. I have to go and I get paid to go and I swore I would go.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.
 
1911Ford, I am sorry I mistook your signature for speaking to me about the .40 My failt dude :(
Peace? :)

------------------
"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"
 
Some fall, some don't. Some fall to rifle rounds, ball, HP, arrows, knife wounds, punches to the chest, or loud noises, and some don't.

I recently saw a training video from another LE Agency on survival. One of the Agents in the video told of his first gunfight during an undercover operation where he had to shoot a BG. He said the BG just turned and looked at him. He then shot him four more times, and yes they were all with a .45 (don't know what kind of rounds).

For the M/S fans, the Agent later became an OSS statistic (almost). He was later shot ONCE during another undercover operation by a BG (unknown make, model of pistol, or type of round) and dropped (success for M/S). He then thought to himself, what am I doing, I shot that other guy with a .45 and he didn't go down. So he get's mad and gets up and shoots the BG. How do you quantify that statistically? You can't, and one anecdote does not prove anything, but it can certainly be a pointer to a larger truth.

Knockdown and stopping power are myths (with the exception of a baseball bat). The truth of the matter is that they all fall when they have either suffered from hemorraghic shock (lack of brain oxygenation due to low blood pressure/volume), received damage to the Central Nervous System, or choose to.

Regards,

Chuck
 
If Chuck Taylor and Clint Smith like 230 gr hardball there must be something to it. I prefer the flying ashtray but that is me. Regards, Richard.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top