David Armstrong
Moderator
Qualification is only part of it. Of greater concern is (1) you must have a statutory power of arrest, and (2) be authorized by your agency to carry.
What do cops think of correctional officers carrying with no ccw permit?
- Thread starter TheBigCaliber
- Start date
H.r. 218
I am a Detention Deputy in West Central Florida. The LAWYER for my agency, had no idea what H.R. 218 contained. Our senior Range Master answered my question. According to my Range Master, one must have arrest powers to carry under 218. Now, if a LAWYER can't answer a question, how can a Firearm Instructer make sense of it. The way I see it, if my Sheriff is ok with me carrying off duty, (he is) then I should be covered.
I am a Detention Deputy in West Central Florida. The LAWYER for my agency, had no idea what H.R. 218 contained. Our senior Range Master answered my question. According to my Range Master, one must have arrest powers to carry under 218. Now, if a LAWYER can't answer a question, how can a Firearm Instructer make sense of it. The way I see it, if my Sheriff is ok with me carrying off duty, (he is) then I should be covered.
TheBigCaliber
New member
SHURSHOT
218 does not effect out job, because we have been carrying guns on duty long before that law came in effect. 218 just kicked in 2004. We carry guns on transports and hospital details. 218 really isn't about the job its about protecting your self and family members after work. We do not have powers of arrest but the law says that if you are employed by a govenment agency and who is authorized by law to supervise inmates then you are covered. Who supervises inmates that have powers of arrest except over the inmates? Police don't supervise inmates. So who would that part of the law be refering to? And it is not about trying to be a police officer. Correctional officers are in just as much if not more danger off duty as any police officer. And that what this law is about. Not trying to make off duty employees cops but to help make us safe. Law enforcement is a dangerous job for all agencys. People who has never worked in corrections don't understand the dangers, and the stress of a correctional officer. But we have a job to do and we do it. One safety difference in police and correctional officers is that when something happens to a police officer you would here about it. When something happens to a correctional officer the public don't hear about it. A month ago we had three officers get shanked in the dining hall at the same time. It was a plot to kill three officers. But you want hear about it. Another institution An officer almost got beat to death by inmates. Now these are the same people we have to deal with in the grocery stores at the mall, movies. When we right our tickets to inmates we put our first and last names, inmates find out where we live. So why shouldn't H.R 218 be for correctional officers as well. In georgia we are sworn under oath, we recieve our peace officer certification. H.R 218 Law Enforcement Safety Act is for Law Enforcement Safety not for protecting the public. Also we have to qualifiy once a year with firearms and have firearms training in our inservice.
218 does not effect out job, because we have been carrying guns on duty long before that law came in effect. 218 just kicked in 2004. We carry guns on transports and hospital details. 218 really isn't about the job its about protecting your self and family members after work. We do not have powers of arrest but the law says that if you are employed by a govenment agency and who is authorized by law to supervise inmates then you are covered. Who supervises inmates that have powers of arrest except over the inmates? Police don't supervise inmates. So who would that part of the law be refering to? And it is not about trying to be a police officer. Correctional officers are in just as much if not more danger off duty as any police officer. And that what this law is about. Not trying to make off duty employees cops but to help make us safe. Law enforcement is a dangerous job for all agencys. People who has never worked in corrections don't understand the dangers, and the stress of a correctional officer. But we have a job to do and we do it. One safety difference in police and correctional officers is that when something happens to a police officer you would here about it. When something happens to a correctional officer the public don't hear about it. A month ago we had three officers get shanked in the dining hall at the same time. It was a plot to kill three officers. But you want hear about it. Another institution An officer almost got beat to death by inmates. Now these are the same people we have to deal with in the grocery stores at the mall, movies. When we right our tickets to inmates we put our first and last names, inmates find out where we live. So why shouldn't H.R 218 be for correctional officers as well. In georgia we are sworn under oath, we recieve our peace officer certification. H.R 218 Law Enforcement Safety Act is for Law Enforcement Safety not for protecting the public. Also we have to qualifiy once a year with firearms and have firearms training in our inservice.
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armoredman
New member
You HAVE to put down your first name? To an inmate, my first name is Sergeant. Period. ADC is covered under Title 13, Criminal Code, as follows,
Sorry that's so long. Here's my Dept website - we're hiring, and pay for experiance. http://adcprisoninfo.az.gov/
Yes, we are the last line of defense for the public, the hidden police, the red headed stepchildren of LE. Yep, been there, heck, AM there DOING that. But it's OK, because this is one interestingly weird ride.
Sorry that's so long. Here's my Dept website - we're hiring, and pay for experiance. http://adcprisoninfo.az.gov/
Yes, we are the last line of defense for the public, the hidden police, the red headed stepchildren of LE. Yep, been there, heck, AM there DOING that. But it's OK, because this is one interestingly weird ride.
TheBigCaliber
New member
Today I went by the District Atorneys officer where I live and asked about the HR 218 law. He had never heard of it, but looked it up. He said that he is not a lawyer but he could give me his unofficial opinion. He said that in his unofficial opinion correctional officers were exempt from having to have a conceal permit. He then informed me of a judge that deals with this type of law but she was not in at the time.
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David Armstrong
Moderator
If you do not have statutory arrest power then HR 218 does not apply to you. That is pretty clear, and that is the way I've always seen it presented. It is not an OR have statutory powers of arrest, it is AND have.
TheBigCaliber
New member
Go to georgia P.O.S.T website, click post act, then scroll down to definitions and click on it, and read correctional officer. We are covered in the great state of georgia.
TheBigCaliber
New member
BG's hate all law enforcement period. But they really hate cops because they arrested them, and C.O's for keeping them locked up. I have threats on my life all the time. And its simply for enforceing the rules of the institution. They tell me all the time what they are going to do to me when they get out if the see me on the streets. And they do see me on the streets, like at the mall, stores, gas stations movies, everywhere. Some I remember some I don't. What if I loose my wallet with my CCW permit inside. I would have to wait no telling how long in georgia to get another. Mean while I am still out on my after work routine. If I am challenged by some of these fools, I want to justified in everyway for defending myself and family members. My little boys are my rideing buddys, my fishing buddys, my movie buddys and most of the time they are with me. If me and my wife is out shopping or whatever there is a good chance we will run into an exconvict. I can't say how he will react when he see me. He may have his homies with him. There are over 1500 inmates at our institution and in march we will be getting another 250 to go into new building. Some inmates get released and go right back to prison. Sometimes for a worst crime than when they went the first couple of times. Inmates get out and transfer so fast you can't remember them all. Some inmates may know you personally.Some you probably have went to school with are lived in your area. It wouldn't be nothing for him to tell another inmate all about you. Corrections is a job that not alot of people are willing to do. For the officers who are doing it we should be able to protect our lives and family members after work with out all the paper work so we can get up and do it again tomorrow.
David Armstrong
Moderator
unless the great state of georgia authorizes you to carry a handgun, HR 218 does not.
TheBigCaliber
New member
If you mean on duty, yea, off duty, the question never came up, but probably not.
David Armstrong
Moderator
I'm no ttrying to bust your chops here, but I'd be real careful, then, and find out a lot more info form an accurate source instead of making guesses and such. From what you have said here on the forum it sounds to me like you are not covered under 218. You may be, but I'd sure get an official ruling from the AG or some such before putting yourself (or other CO's) on the chopping block. It's tough being a test case!
I know this thread is old but found it while looking at HR 218 for a friend and felt this was valuable to the discussion and TheBigCliber's postings.
I am an OIC at a Georgia Correctional facility and have been researching the rules and laws about off duty carry since joining the department and do so often still to keep up with updates. I am not 100% sure if we are covered under HR 218 due to the one line about statutory arrest powers and plan to consult a lawyer and judge on the issue. Georgia correctional officers are POST certified and are considered law enforcement officers. We also do have arrest powers but only in performance of our duties. Regardless if we are covered by HR218 or not so long as you are in the state of Georgia you are exempt from GA codes 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 dealing with concealed carry due to GA code 16-11-130 so your good to go on concealed carry in state but i would still get a carry permit anyway. Sadly 16-11-130 only covers retired members of corrections who worked in probations but not retired co's, that really needs to be changed too.
I would also like to point out it is rarely brought up during training as our training staff is a bunch of sorry guys appointed by the buddy system who want to get home asap rather than teach but if your ever on a transport etc and carrying a duty weapon if an individual is committing a crime you are to get info (tag number etc) and turn it in to the police and contact them but not get involved as your primary duty is dealing with the transport of the inmate and his or her and the publics safety but if a weapon is being used in the commision of that crime then your are obligated to intervene and stop it.
I am an OIC at a Georgia Correctional facility and have been researching the rules and laws about off duty carry since joining the department and do so often still to keep up with updates. I am not 100% sure if we are covered under HR 218 due to the one line about statutory arrest powers and plan to consult a lawyer and judge on the issue. Georgia correctional officers are POST certified and are considered law enforcement officers. We also do have arrest powers but only in performance of our duties. Regardless if we are covered by HR218 or not so long as you are in the state of Georgia you are exempt from GA codes 16-11-126 through 16-11-128 dealing with concealed carry due to GA code 16-11-130 so your good to go on concealed carry in state but i would still get a carry permit anyway. Sadly 16-11-130 only covers retired members of corrections who worked in probations but not retired co's, that really needs to be changed too.
I would also like to point out it is rarely brought up during training as our training staff is a bunch of sorry guys appointed by the buddy system who want to get home asap rather than teach but if your ever on a transport etc and carrying a duty weapon if an individual is committing a crime you are to get info (tag number etc) and turn it in to the police and contact them but not get involved as your primary duty is dealing with the transport of the inmate and his or her and the publics safety but if a weapon is being used in the commision of that crime then your are obligated to intervene and stop it.
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In the Gret Stet of Louisiana, correctional officers come in two flavors, those who are POST qualified and those who are not. If you're a POST qualified correctional officer, then you have the power to make arrests and you're qualified under HR218. So, in this state, POST qualification is the defining criteria. Generally, a correctional officer will be given an opportunity, sometime about a year after being hired to go to a POST academy. He or she does the 12 weeks, passes the course, and they're POST qualified, just like any other cop on the street.
In our agency, you start in the jail. Ninety percent of the new hires start in corrections, work for a year or so, then go to the academy. If an opening comes up in another division, then they're eligible immediately to transfer to the new job, typically on the patrol line.
Some folks decide they like corrections and stay in the jails. Rank is easier to make in corrections because there are so many supervisory positions. Some folks go to the line for a while, then go back into corrections to make rank.
But in this state, the defining moment is POST qualification. Either you are, or you're not.
In our agency, you start in the jail. Ninety percent of the new hires start in corrections, work for a year or so, then go to the academy. If an opening comes up in another division, then they're eligible immediately to transfer to the new job, typically on the patrol line.
Some folks decide they like corrections and stay in the jails. Rank is easier to make in corrections because there are so many supervisory positions. Some folks go to the line for a while, then go back into corrections to make rank.
But in this state, the defining moment is POST qualification. Either you are, or you're not.
Ok, as I posted 3 years ago; are your powers of arrest over the general public (as POLICE and Probation Officers are), or only those while acting in official capacity over adjudicated / convicted persons committed to a DOC facility (or already in custody, awaiting trial or conviction) (as a Correctional Officer or Guard)? The legal definition (and it sounds like it is different in every State), makes a difference, and is based upon training, certification and scope of authority.
Also, in many States, due to the low pay and high turn over rate of prison / jail facility staff, the hiring standards are MUCH lower than that of Police / Probation. The institutions often act as "filters" for those seeking to work on the streets as Police / Probation Officers. Not trying to start a debate or fight, or hurt anyones ego, I'm just calling it as I (and many others) see it.
Double check with your States Attorney, and get your answer in writing. Why risk it, just play it safe and get a CC permit! CO's DO have very high risk jobs, and a good reason to carry off duty (I know, as I was a CO for 13 years), but #218, from the way myself and many others read it, would not apply to CO's. It only covers Police and Probation, at least according to the Attorney General's office in my State.
Also, in many States, due to the low pay and high turn over rate of prison / jail facility staff, the hiring standards are MUCH lower than that of Police / Probation. The institutions often act as "filters" for those seeking to work on the streets as Police / Probation Officers. Not trying to start a debate or fight, or hurt anyones ego, I'm just calling it as I (and many others) see it.
Double check with your States Attorney, and get your answer in writing. Why risk it, just play it safe and get a CC permit! CO's DO have very high risk jobs, and a good reason to carry off duty (I know, as I was a CO for 13 years), but #218, from the way myself and many others read it, would not apply to CO's. It only covers Police and Probation, at least according to the Attorney General's office in my State.
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David Wong; FLEOSA, NRA.org....
I'd research the work of atty; David Wong. Wong wrote a detailed item on the HR218(signed into law by POTUS Bush). To my knowledge it's now called the FLEOSA; Federal LEO Safety Act,
.
Wong may be able to answer your corrections officer questions too.
State & local gun laws may be different too. You may want to contact your state's AG(Atty General) office or check www.NRA.org .
The NRA has a legal affairs office & a point of contact for sworn LE officers. That LE office may be able to address your concerns.
I'd close by saying you may want to apply for or obtain a CC license or carry permit. Your corrections training may meet the required standards(it would in my state,). As Massad Ayoob(a respected use of force expert/instructor) says; a carry license shows local LE your concern & respect for the law. If there is a critical incident, you can say you were off-duty but had a valid permit/concealed license.
I'd research the work of atty; David Wong. Wong wrote a detailed item on the HR218(signed into law by POTUS Bush). To my knowledge it's now called the FLEOSA; Federal LEO Safety Act,
.Wong may be able to answer your corrections officer questions too.
State & local gun laws may be different too. You may want to contact your state's AG(Atty General) office or check www.NRA.org .
The NRA has a legal affairs office & a point of contact for sworn LE officers. That LE office may be able to address your concerns.
I'd close by saying you may want to apply for or obtain a CC license or carry permit. Your corrections training may meet the required standards(it would in my state,
). As Massad Ayoob(a respected use of force expert/instructor) says; a carry license shows local LE your concern & respect for the law. If there is a critical incident, you can say you were off-duty but had a valid permit/concealed license.Louisiana P.O.S.T. is Louisiana POST doesn't matter if your in corrections, patrol, or the computer repair guy you have powers of arrest.
At my agency you can have off or put in to have off any holiday save one. Mardi Gras that one belongs to the sheriff and it doesn't matter what division you work in you will be on the street or walk a float if you are POST. It is pretty funny to see the smirk get wipped off someone's face when a correctional deputy arrest someone when they have it in their mind that corrections rocker on the uniform means they can't.
At my agency you can have off or put in to have off any holiday save one. Mardi Gras that one belongs to the sheriff and it doesn't matter what division you work in you will be on the street or walk a float if you are POST. It is pretty funny to see the smirk get wipped off someone's face when a correctional deputy arrest someone when they have it in their mind that corrections rocker on the uniform means they can't.
WOW!... Sad how some states view their corrections officers.
First off I'm not, nor have I ever worked in any jail or prison. I've never been a jail guard or as I prefer... a corrections officer.
To insinuate that any corrections officer is not the police is insane. The prison's, and the jails in our society are in themselves a comunity. This comunity is policed by corrections officers. I believe that the job of a corrections officer is a lot more dangerous than a regular police officer. And the sacrifices greater.
Although under black letter law it seem's that some corrections officers may have been disqualified under HR218. It was recently amended to include some federal employee's, and given a new name. Just as this correction was made I'm sure the whole corrections officer issue will be adressed. ( if they have a lobby..lol)
Police Officers carry firearms off duty mainly for two reasons. First when an officer swears his oath it's not limited to when he's on duty, or in uniform. A police officer (in every jurisdiction I know of) is pretty much on duty 24/7. He's also responsible to the public who has entrusted him to protect that same public 24/7.
Secondly in the persuit of his duties many a police officer has had occasion to make arrests, or conduct investigations resulting in unhappy campers. The same society that this officer protects must allow the officer the lattitude to protect himself 24/7, and this means being armed for self protection.
Is a corrections officers well being any less valuable? These officers are in jail or prison with the same people the police arrest. In concentrated numbers. Is it possible that an inmate would want revenge against an corrections officer? In my opinion it's even more likely given that a corrections officer will be spending a lot more time, and have constant reaction with these same guys the police arrested. Most of the time these criminals, and convicts eventually get released. Corrections officers should have at least the option of protecting themselves.
Coming from a police background I understand the rub between some police officers, and some corrections officers. As a police officer I would never imagine that I could enter a jail, and much less a prison and assume the duties of a corrections officer. My skill set wouldnt work in that environment, and I wouldnt have access to most of my tools. The problems come when some.. (not many) corrections officers who may have peace officer status, and or may be legally armed assumes they can do police work. They dont have the skill set's needed, they dont have the training. Also there are (more and more these days) Police officers who seem to have a terrible attitude from watching too many TV show's or talking to to many strict enforcement types. They seem to try and push every contact into a confrontation, and seem to feel threatened by anyone who has equal or superior knowledge, or who is also legally armed.
OK so I have to step down from my soap box, and get ready for work. Sorry for the long rant. But seriously... Where would we be without corrections officers. They do a dirty job, and make great sacrifices...WE need to take care of them as well...
Glenn Dee
First off I'm not, nor have I ever worked in any jail or prison. I've never been a jail guard or as I prefer... a corrections officer.
To insinuate that any corrections officer is not the police is insane. The prison's, and the jails in our society are in themselves a comunity. This comunity is policed by corrections officers. I believe that the job of a corrections officer is a lot more dangerous than a regular police officer. And the sacrifices greater.
Although under black letter law it seem's that some corrections officers may have been disqualified under HR218. It was recently amended to include some federal employee's, and given a new name. Just as this correction was made I'm sure the whole corrections officer issue will be adressed. ( if they have a lobby..lol)
Police Officers carry firearms off duty mainly for two reasons. First when an officer swears his oath it's not limited to when he's on duty, or in uniform. A police officer (in every jurisdiction I know of) is pretty much on duty 24/7. He's also responsible to the public who has entrusted him to protect that same public 24/7.
Secondly in the persuit of his duties many a police officer has had occasion to make arrests, or conduct investigations resulting in unhappy campers. The same society that this officer protects must allow the officer the lattitude to protect himself 24/7, and this means being armed for self protection.
Is a corrections officers well being any less valuable? These officers are in jail or prison with the same people the police arrest. In concentrated numbers. Is it possible that an inmate would want revenge against an corrections officer? In my opinion it's even more likely given that a corrections officer will be spending a lot more time, and have constant reaction with these same guys the police arrested. Most of the time these criminals, and convicts eventually get released. Corrections officers should have at least the option of protecting themselves.
Coming from a police background I understand the rub between some police officers, and some corrections officers. As a police officer I would never imagine that I could enter a jail, and much less a prison and assume the duties of a corrections officer. My skill set wouldnt work in that environment, and I wouldnt have access to most of my tools. The problems come when some.. (not many) corrections officers who may have peace officer status, and or may be legally armed assumes they can do police work. They dont have the skill set's needed, they dont have the training. Also there are (more and more these days) Police officers who seem to have a terrible attitude from watching too many TV show's or talking to to many strict enforcement types. They seem to try and push every contact into a confrontation, and seem to feel threatened by anyone who has equal or superior knowledge, or who is also legally armed.
OK so I have to step down from my soap box, and get ready for work. Sorry for the long rant. But seriously... Where would we be without corrections officers. They do a dirty job, and make great sacrifices...WE need to take care of them as well...
Glenn Dee
Something to consider
Anyone that's in corrections should probably get the permit to CC anyway. Here's my take on it based solely on New York State. Should you be out of work for an extended period of time (sick, comp, etc.) and your weapons qualification expires, your right to carry a weapon expires also. You will be required to turn in any weapon on your shield until you requalify since you need a permit or shield just to own a handgun. If you have a permit this doesn't affect you. I'm sure most Departments that allow you to carry on your shield also stipulates that you must qualify to do so. NYS COs can carry on their shields due to their Peace Officer status even though the NYSDOCS does not want them to do it. Seems like the smart thing to do would be to get the permit regardless of what your state allows.
Anyone that's in corrections should probably get the permit to CC anyway. Here's my take on it based solely on New York State. Should you be out of work for an extended period of time (sick, comp, etc.) and your weapons qualification expires, your right to carry a weapon expires also. You will be required to turn in any weapon on your shield until you requalify since you need a permit or shield just to own a handgun. If you have a permit this doesn't affect you. I'm sure most Departments that allow you to carry on your shield also stipulates that you must qualify to do so. NYS COs can carry on their shields due to their Peace Officer status even though the NYSDOCS does not want them to do it. Seems like the smart thing to do would be to get the permit regardless of what your state allows.