What could be causing this?
- Thread starter Mosin-Marauder
- Start date
Mosin-Marauder
New member
Hmm...Savage or CZ. Decisions decisions. The savage is a lot cheaper. I imagine they're both very accurate. Both carbine lengths and in .223. Both have iron sights. I didn't know they made a hog hunter in .223 though, so that's nice. The savage also has a threaded barrel. Could put a flash suppressor on it. Also has a green synthetic stock. I like both stocks pretty well. Like I said, I'll have to think more on it.
Mo,
Yes, you knew the Hog Hunter comes in .223.
We discussed it.
Both guns are reliable & accurate, the Savage is cheaper & slightly lighter with its plastic stock.
May or may not be able to mate a flash suppressor on it, most FPs come in a different thread pitch than sound suppressors do.
But, you could always try.
Denis
Yes, you knew the Hog Hunter comes in .223.
We discussed it.
Both guns are reliable & accurate, the Savage is cheaper & slightly lighter with its plastic stock.
May or may not be able to mate a flash suppressor on it, most FPs come in a different thread pitch than sound suppressors do.
But, you could always try.
Denis
Mosin-Marauder
New member
Oh, sorry. I just remember it coming in .308.
Not long ago MM's post was about earning gun bucks$.
Another gun plus another cartridge equals a lot of money for a young man who has to focus on school.
So,from my point of view,fanning the flames of A)being dissatisfied with the guns he has and B) the idea that a new piece of hardware will make him a better shot...should probably be reconsidered.
I do not speak for Mr kraigwy.I have been to a couple of his vintage CMP Garand clinics.
I saw Garands,Springfields,P-17's,SMLE's,Moisins,Mausers,Krags,and more.
A lesson I came away with,most all of these old battle rifles will shoot minute of battle rifle.Generally about 3MOA or a little better.
The 10 ring is sized accordingly.A battle rifle will likely be capable of keeping them in the 10 ring.
Its not an equiptment game.No need to look for an "edge" in the rifle.
If the rifle will do a battle rifle job,then the shooter's challenge is to shoot to the potential of the rifle.
If the shooter can do that with a 3 MOA rifle,he can do it with a 1 MOA rifle.
The 10 ring gets sized to the potential of the rifle.Calibrate your expectations.
Don't let the rifle you do not have be an obstacle.Shoot the rifle you have.
Watch "Enemy at the Gates"..and,BTW,there were plenty of women Russian WW2 snipers with Moisins.
You handload,MM.Look into a Lyman or Lee loading manual at cast bullet data.
One sorce of bullets would be Oregon Trail bullets.They are not the cheapest,but they are good.Look at the Truecast.Hardcast,lubed,gaschecked.
A 1600 or 1800 fps cast bullet load can be very accurate.Its cheaper,and recoil will be very mild.It will punch a hole in paper just fine.
If you do not have the CMP book on rifle marksmanship,it comes highly recommended.
If you dig around on youtube,you can find the full set of US Army marksmanship training films.Watch them.
I can't speak for your Dad,this is up to him,but some things work out a lot better with a coach.If he would be willing to study the book or films and then help coach you,it would be helpful.
Being competitive rivals has its own fun,but maybe a coaching role will show your improvement...that can sit pretty well with a father.
He'll get better,too.If a person gets serious about teaching something,they improve themselves.
In time,.you two can trade off as spotter/sharpshooter team.
Another gun plus another cartridge equals a lot of money for a young man who has to focus on school.
So,from my point of view,fanning the flames of A)being dissatisfied with the guns he has and B) the idea that a new piece of hardware will make him a better shot...should probably be reconsidered.
I do not speak for Mr kraigwy.I have been to a couple of his vintage CMP Garand clinics.
I saw Garands,Springfields,P-17's,SMLE's,Moisins,Mausers,Krags,and more.
A lesson I came away with,most all of these old battle rifles will shoot minute of battle rifle.Generally about 3MOA or a little better.
The 10 ring is sized accordingly.A battle rifle will likely be capable of keeping them in the 10 ring.
Its not an equiptment game.No need to look for an "edge" in the rifle.
If the rifle will do a battle rifle job,then the shooter's challenge is to shoot to the potential of the rifle.
If the shooter can do that with a 3 MOA rifle,he can do it with a 1 MOA rifle.
The 10 ring gets sized to the potential of the rifle.Calibrate your expectations.
Don't let the rifle you do not have be an obstacle.Shoot the rifle you have.
Watch "Enemy at the Gates"..and,BTW,there were plenty of women Russian WW2 snipers with Moisins.
You handload,MM.Look into a Lyman or Lee loading manual at cast bullet data.
One sorce of bullets would be Oregon Trail bullets.They are not the cheapest,but they are good.Look at the Truecast.Hardcast,lubed,gaschecked.
A 1600 or 1800 fps cast bullet load can be very accurate.Its cheaper,and recoil will be very mild.It will punch a hole in paper just fine.
If you do not have the CMP book on rifle marksmanship,it comes highly recommended.
If you dig around on youtube,you can find the full set of US Army marksmanship training films.Watch them.
I can't speak for your Dad,this is up to him,but some things work out a lot better with a coach.If he would be willing to study the book or films and then help coach you,it would be helpful.
Being competitive rivals has its own fun,but maybe a coaching role will show your improvement...that can sit pretty well with a father.
He'll get better,too.If a person gets serious about teaching something,they improve themselves.
In time,.you two can trade off as spotter/sharpshooter team.
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Mosin-Marauder
New member
Actually, kraigwy sent me one of those CMP handbooks and I've been studying on it a good long while. Pretty interesting stuff.
Mosin-Marauder
New member
Okay!
we are just trying to offer you our help to let you get better faster.Mosin-Marauder
New member
It's that "hopefully" part that's bugging me. And thanks to all for your help.
Lucas McCain
New member
The hopefully part will quit bugging you, when you learn patience. YOU need to focus on the path that you are taking. If you spend to much time looking for shortcuts, you lose sight of the path you are going on.
Hi,
The problem in defending Mo's choice of two vintage battle rifles by citing stories of what they CAN do, and/or what they do do (and yes- I said do do) in experienced hands is that those references are totally useless and utterly inapplicable to Mo's situation.
Enemy At The Gate?
Really?
You equate a trained professional sniper using a NEW Mosin selected for its build quality & accuracy (back then) with an optic sight to an inexperienced 14 year-old boy of slight stature and no real training, instruction, supervision, or coaching, trying to learn to shoot on his own using an indifferently-stored and who-knows-what-condition 70-year-old rifle under iron sights, without enough rounds behind him to know whether it's him or the gun that isn't shooting straight?
I'd ask those who cite service rifle competition events as examples of what a surplus rifle can do just how many 14-year-olds they see even showing up with ONLY INFO THEY GOT ON A GUN FORUM as their instructor, and no other experience or foundation in shooting, much less winning.
Equipment IS very important in starting from ground level.
Mo's rifles are unknown quantities in triggers, sights, and bore condition.
Military rifles such as the Mosin (lousy trigger on a good day) and the K31 (better, but still...) were built to certain performance parameters.
Those parameters did not include teaching young boys how to learn to shoot.
Military rifles in trained hands can pull off great feats, but the key there is TRAINED HANDS, which Mo's are not.
What percentage of those who shoot them well in either service roles, recreational roles, hunting roles, or competition roles, got there by starting out at age 14 with that rifle as their first real learning tool?
With no teacher?
With no instruction?
With little support from a parent?
Mo can't shoot 20 rounds with his service rifles before the recoil gets to him.
How much progress can he make on that basis?
He can't hardly hold them up to shoot off-hand.
He still closes his eyes occasionally with the blast & recoil.
Equipment does matter.
He would be infinitely better off with a relatively short, lightweight modern .223 that he can hold up, he can shoot till he runs out of ammo without recoil wearing him out, he can AFFORD to shoot in greater amounts (.223 is much cheaper all the way round in factory loads, brass, bullets, and powder), and he'll have a better trigger and much more of a known quantity than with his Mosin or even the K31.
He should also, given a much easier gun to shoot, be able to progress much better on his own, in HIS situation, without instruction or much parental encouragement.
The Mosin was a fearsome weapon in the right context, but Mo isn't that context.
The K31 was a quality rifle, but designed for combat in the hands of adults, and even then saw no real combat.
The Garand, Springfield, Mauser, and so on that you see used in competent hands today is used by people who had a foundation to build on that Mo doesn't, and handing a 14-year-old newbie a beat-to-spit Mosin & cheering him on when he has no way to learn the gun aside from an Internet forum is not doing him any good.
The K31 is a far better rifle, but it ain't a Savage or CZ in terms of trigger, barrel condition, sheer ease of handling for a less-than-adult, and recoil.
And for those who say "But, I took my 10-year-old out & taught her how to shoot my Enfield!", that's the difference- YOU TAUGHT HER. YOU WERE THERE. YOU WERE AN ONGOING PART OF THE LEARNING AND THE EXPERIENCE. YOU SUPPLIED AMMO, YOU ENCOURAGED HER, YOU MADE SURE SHE HAD INSTRUCTION.
Mo has none of that.
It's his choice on what direction he wants to take, but citing the grand history of battle rifles, a movie, how well battle rifles do in competition, and how much your young daughter likes to shoot your gun when you supply everything, you teach her, you hold her hand, and you support her, has no worthwhile relevance to Mo's situation at all.
Denis
The problem in defending Mo's choice of two vintage battle rifles by citing stories of what they CAN do, and/or what they do do (and yes- I said do do) in experienced hands is that those references are totally useless and utterly inapplicable to Mo's situation.
Enemy At The Gate?
Really?
You equate a trained professional sniper using a NEW Mosin selected for its build quality & accuracy (back then) with an optic sight to an inexperienced 14 year-old boy of slight stature and no real training, instruction, supervision, or coaching, trying to learn to shoot on his own using an indifferently-stored and who-knows-what-condition 70-year-old rifle under iron sights, without enough rounds behind him to know whether it's him or the gun that isn't shooting straight?
I'd ask those who cite service rifle competition events as examples of what a surplus rifle can do just how many 14-year-olds they see even showing up with ONLY INFO THEY GOT ON A GUN FORUM as their instructor, and no other experience or foundation in shooting, much less winning.
Equipment IS very important in starting from ground level.
Mo's rifles are unknown quantities in triggers, sights, and bore condition.
Military rifles such as the Mosin (lousy trigger on a good day) and the K31 (better, but still...) were built to certain performance parameters.
Those parameters did not include teaching young boys how to learn to shoot.
Military rifles in trained hands can pull off great feats, but the key there is TRAINED HANDS, which Mo's are not.
What percentage of those who shoot them well in either service roles, recreational roles, hunting roles, or competition roles, got there by starting out at age 14 with that rifle as their first real learning tool?
With no teacher?
With no instruction?
With little support from a parent?
Mo can't shoot 20 rounds with his service rifles before the recoil gets to him.
How much progress can he make on that basis?
He can't hardly hold them up to shoot off-hand.
He still closes his eyes occasionally with the blast & recoil.
Equipment does matter.
He would be infinitely better off with a relatively short, lightweight modern .223 that he can hold up, he can shoot till he runs out of ammo without recoil wearing him out, he can AFFORD to shoot in greater amounts (.223 is much cheaper all the way round in factory loads, brass, bullets, and powder), and he'll have a better trigger and much more of a known quantity than with his Mosin or even the K31.
He should also, given a much easier gun to shoot, be able to progress much better on his own, in HIS situation, without instruction or much parental encouragement.
The Mosin was a fearsome weapon in the right context, but Mo isn't that context.
The K31 was a quality rifle, but designed for combat in the hands of adults, and even then saw no real combat.
The Garand, Springfield, Mauser, and so on that you see used in competent hands today is used by people who had a foundation to build on that Mo doesn't, and handing a 14-year-old newbie a beat-to-spit Mosin & cheering him on when he has no way to learn the gun aside from an Internet forum is not doing him any good.
The K31 is a far better rifle, but it ain't a Savage or CZ in terms of trigger, barrel condition, sheer ease of handling for a less-than-adult, and recoil.
And for those who say "But, I took my 10-year-old out & taught her how to shoot my Enfield!", that's the difference- YOU TAUGHT HER. YOU WERE THERE. YOU WERE AN ONGOING PART OF THE LEARNING AND THE EXPERIENCE. YOU SUPPLIED AMMO, YOU ENCOURAGED HER, YOU MADE SURE SHE HAD INSTRUCTION.
Mo has none of that.
It's his choice on what direction he wants to take, but citing the grand history of battle rifles, a movie, how well battle rifles do in competition, and how much your young daughter likes to shoot your gun when you supply everything, you teach her, you hold her hand, and you support her, has no worthwhile relevance to Mo's situation at all.
Denis
Mosin-Marauder
New member
Would a Ruger American in 17 HMR work? Iron sights,Its compact, no recoil, detachable magazine, two different stock modules for scope/ iron sights (one is a raised cheek comb and the other is a flat module) ammo is inexpensive (Cheaper than .223 even) They're very accurate from what I've seen. I could even put a scope on it. Could shoot it at 100 yards better than a .22 due to the higher velocity, and it has a greater effective range. I've got someone I can buy one from for $245. Just wondering if that would be a good learning tool. Thanks.
-Mo.
-Mo.
Denis
I first want to offer my respect for the mentorship you are providing MM.
In my own case,my father "left to pursue other opportunities"when I was about 11.
I had an older brother who was a firearms enthusiast.He left for the military when I was 13.
He left behind about 1/3 pickup load of gun magazines,books,and a copy of "The Old Man and the Boy"
I wanted a 22.He said "No".If you want to learn to shoot,go to the YMCA and join their rifle club.
I did.There was an old man,who would stay till I was tired of shooting.
He was a little anchor for a kid who had his life pretty jacked up at the time.A treasure.
Understand,at the time,my single mom was carrying a heck of a load.She is my picture of what courage and strength mean.But even with powdered milk and used bread,I've still seen tears run down her face because she didn't have food when I came home.
Via paper routes and dishwashing,I made enough change to have a shooting habit.
An old Gentleman Gunsmith named Claude Simmons made a little room under his wing for me.Maybe because I was polite,kept my hands behind my back,and tried to ask intelligent questions.Then I listened.
I also remember my lack of patience,and a certain amount of family drama and stress on Mom.
My observation:Our economy has been rather rough.Most folks have noticed a small pkg of hamburger is 6 bucks,gas is near 4 bucks,and the electric bill has gone up.The paycheck has not.
I do not know MM's family business,its none of my business,but it would not surprise me if his folks have to prioritize spending.
$500,more or less,for a new .223 ,combined with the storms of adolescence certainly could result in some difficult dynamics.
As a father in law,I butt out of my daughter's family decisions.I respect that my son in law and daughter can manage just fine.
IMO,as third parties who do not live in MM's house,we must excersize a certain amount of restraint and honor that MM has a father.I think we need to honor his father's way.Agree or not.
In the grand scheme,the ideal would be shooting as a sport the father and son grow a relationship around.Thats up to them.We have to be careful about imposing our utopia .
Sure,It would be great for MM to have an Anshutz and a CZ,etc.Maybe sometime!!
Is it right for us to put his family in the position of negotiating and affording a new rifle?
Rather than tell MM,yeah,you can't possibly learn to shoot with(not my words)old,beat up etc,running his gun down...
I suggested "Enemy at the Gates" so he could look at his rifle,know its heritage,what others had done with that rifle,and continue to develop himself with what he has.And,BTW,I do not think all the Russian women snipers were much bigger,stronger,ar somehow better able to absorb recoil than a 14 yr old young man.I also suggest they may not have had much more shooting experience than MM.More focused and coached maybe.
If you have access to the old Foxfire books,look up Herchel House building a Poorboy muzzle loader.Research Hacker Martin.Or study Ned Roberts "Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle"
Those old backwoods guys forgewelded iron around a mandrel to make a tube,made their own tools with a file to ream and rifle the barrel,and built rifles that would group under 3 in at 220 yds with bullets cast in home made molds.
Actually,that might not be a bad path for MM.
Any decent old full size bolt .22 can be fitted with a sling and sights.Its all anyone needs to learn to shoot.
I do agree recoil helps nothing,and forms bad habits.If the milsurps are the rifle you have,get a Lee hand press,some dies,and make reduced loads.With the right powder and reduced loads,a dipper will suffice.
OK,Denis,I had my say.No heartburn.I appreciate your efforts.I know something about standing in MM's shoes.
We are both on the same team,with different perspective.
To quote a Gentleman I have had the pleasure of shooting with"Its not the hardware,its the software"
I first want to offer my respect for the mentorship you are providing MM.
In my own case,my father "left to pursue other opportunities"when I was about 11.
I had an older brother who was a firearms enthusiast.He left for the military when I was 13.
He left behind about 1/3 pickup load of gun magazines,books,and a copy of "The Old Man and the Boy"
I wanted a 22.He said "No".If you want to learn to shoot,go to the YMCA and join their rifle club.
I did.There was an old man,who would stay till I was tired of shooting.
He was a little anchor for a kid who had his life pretty jacked up at the time.A treasure.
Understand,at the time,my single mom was carrying a heck of a load.She is my picture of what courage and strength mean.But even with powdered milk and used bread,I've still seen tears run down her face because she didn't have food when I came home.
Via paper routes and dishwashing,I made enough change to have a shooting habit.
An old Gentleman Gunsmith named Claude Simmons made a little room under his wing for me.Maybe because I was polite,kept my hands behind my back,and tried to ask intelligent questions.Then I listened.
I also remember my lack of patience,and a certain amount of family drama and stress on Mom.
My observation:Our economy has been rather rough.Most folks have noticed a small pkg of hamburger is 6 bucks,gas is near 4 bucks,and the electric bill has gone up.The paycheck has not.
I do not know MM's family business,its none of my business,but it would not surprise me if his folks have to prioritize spending.
$500,more or less,for a new .223 ,combined with the storms of adolescence certainly could result in some difficult dynamics.
As a father in law,I butt out of my daughter's family decisions.I respect that my son in law and daughter can manage just fine.
IMO,as third parties who do not live in MM's house,we must excersize a certain amount of restraint and honor that MM has a father.I think we need to honor his father's way.Agree or not.
In the grand scheme,the ideal would be shooting as a sport the father and son grow a relationship around.Thats up to them.We have to be careful about imposing our utopia .
Sure,It would be great for MM to have an Anshutz and a CZ,etc.Maybe sometime!!
Is it right for us to put his family in the position of negotiating and affording a new rifle?
Rather than tell MM,yeah,you can't possibly learn to shoot with(not my words)old,beat up etc,running his gun down...
I suggested "Enemy at the Gates" so he could look at his rifle,know its heritage,what others had done with that rifle,and continue to develop himself with what he has.And,BTW,I do not think all the Russian women snipers were much bigger,stronger,ar somehow better able to absorb recoil than a 14 yr old young man.I also suggest they may not have had much more shooting experience than MM.More focused and coached maybe.
If you have access to the old Foxfire books,look up Herchel House building a Poorboy muzzle loader.Research Hacker Martin.Or study Ned Roberts "Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle"
Those old backwoods guys forgewelded iron around a mandrel to make a tube,made their own tools with a file to ream and rifle the barrel,and built rifles that would group under 3 in at 220 yds with bullets cast in home made molds.
Actually,that might not be a bad path for MM.
Any decent old full size bolt .22 can be fitted with a sling and sights.Its all anyone needs to learn to shoot.
I do agree recoil helps nothing,and forms bad habits.If the milsurps are the rifle you have,get a Lee hand press,some dies,and make reduced loads.With the right powder and reduced loads,a dipper will suffice.
OK,Denis,I had my say.No heartburn.I appreciate your efforts.I know something about standing in MM's shoes.
We are both on the same team,with different perspective.
To quote a Gentleman I have had the pleasure of shooting with"Its not the hardware,its the software"
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Hi,
None of what I've said is intended as criticism of Mo's familial situation, just trying to lay it out.
For whatever reason, if the picture Mo paints of his father's limited participation is accurate, it appears to consist largely of very minor interaction, no guidance, no teaching, little support for Mo's guns, and I see Mo mentioning derision regarding his choice & efforts to fire his guns.
If this is the case, it's an impression received over several public posts & private PMs with Mo.
My point in mentioning it was not to criticize, but only to bring Mo's situation to the attention of those posters who offer suggestions & anecdotes based on an irrelevant model.
Mo's apparently largely on his own, trying to learn to shoot without much guidance at home or instruction elsewhere, and while I'm sure his father must be exercising some degree of supervision over his shooting & reloading ( I HOPE!), Mo just isn't getting the type of personal right-there instruction & support those rifles demand for best success.
This is all compounded by Mo's impatience in wandering back & forth from this idea to that idea, and it's been a struggle just to get him to adopt a standardized shooting protocol with one gun, one load, one consistent distance, one consistent position, one consistent target, and one consistent learning method.
He likes to add variables that only muddy the picture.
What a couple of us are trying to do, long-distance, is just get him to settle down on a good gun that's a known quantity, easier & cheaper for him to shoot, and use the consistent protocols mentioned in working on his skills as a beginner.
Advice to stick to a difficult gun, try advanced positions when he hasn't yet mastered a fully-supported bench position or achieved final zero with his rifles, and so on isn't helping him any.
Neither is his impatience, when he bounces from gun to gun, distance to distance, load to load, position to position, and wants to enter competition NOW!
I share your own background.
Parents divorced when I was 12.
Little money for food, no money for shooting.
Got my first rifle at 16, on my own.
It was NOT a heavy milsurp I couldn't afford to shoot in copious amounts & couldn't handle shooting more than 20 rounds a session.
It was a .22, which I taught myself to shoot.
It didn't cause me to flinch, to close my eyes, or to quit after 20 rounds because of recoil.
I've suggested Mo spend more time really learning his .22, but he's got those mid-bore milsurps firmly planted in his head & they're really only holding him back in his attempts to learn to shoot.
Again- his choice, his problem.
We can only offer advice, some of which is more useful than others.
Denis
None of what I've said is intended as criticism of Mo's familial situation, just trying to lay it out.
For whatever reason, if the picture Mo paints of his father's limited participation is accurate, it appears to consist largely of very minor interaction, no guidance, no teaching, little support for Mo's guns, and I see Mo mentioning derision regarding his choice & efforts to fire his guns.
If this is the case, it's an impression received over several public posts & private PMs with Mo.
My point in mentioning it was not to criticize, but only to bring Mo's situation to the attention of those posters who offer suggestions & anecdotes based on an irrelevant model.
Mo's apparently largely on his own, trying to learn to shoot without much guidance at home or instruction elsewhere, and while I'm sure his father must be exercising some degree of supervision over his shooting & reloading ( I HOPE!), Mo just isn't getting the type of personal right-there instruction & support those rifles demand for best success.
This is all compounded by Mo's impatience in wandering back & forth from this idea to that idea, and it's been a struggle just to get him to adopt a standardized shooting protocol with one gun, one load, one consistent distance, one consistent position, one consistent target, and one consistent learning method.
He likes to add variables that only muddy the picture.
What a couple of us are trying to do, long-distance, is just get him to settle down on a good gun that's a known quantity, easier & cheaper for him to shoot, and use the consistent protocols mentioned in working on his skills as a beginner.
Advice to stick to a difficult gun, try advanced positions when he hasn't yet mastered a fully-supported bench position or achieved final zero with his rifles, and so on isn't helping him any.
Neither is his impatience, when he bounces from gun to gun, distance to distance, load to load, position to position, and wants to enter competition NOW!
I share your own background.
Parents divorced when I was 12.
Little money for food, no money for shooting.
Got my first rifle at 16, on my own.
It was NOT a heavy milsurp I couldn't afford to shoot in copious amounts & couldn't handle shooting more than 20 rounds a session.
It was a .22, which I taught myself to shoot.
It didn't cause me to flinch, to close my eyes, or to quit after 20 rounds because of recoil.
I've suggested Mo spend more time really learning his .22, but he's got those mid-bore milsurps firmly planted in his head & they're really only holding him back in his attempts to learn to shoot.
Again- his choice, his problem.
We can only offer advice, some of which is more useful than others.
Denis
Mosin-Marauder
New member
So buy another, better suited rifle? Or just keep practicing a lot with the 10/22? Which would be better?
Also, I'd like to personally thank all of you trying to help me. I know I get impatient a lot. I promise I'll try to keep myself on the right track from now on.
Also, I'd like to personally thank all of you trying to help me. I know I get impatient a lot. I promise I'll try to keep myself on the right track from now on.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
If you've got the 10/22 already, just use that. You should be able to shoot very well at 50 yards with that gun. It can almost certainly hold 1" groups at 50.
I've said many times on this forum that shooting a .22 bores me to tears. I'm with you on that, I don't like it at all but I'm not really working on fundamentals of marksmanship. If I were, I'd be shooting A LOT of .22 even though it bores me.
I've said many times on this forum that shooting a .22 bores me to tears. I'm with you on that, I don't like it at all but I'm not really working on fundamentals of marksmanship. If I were, I'd be shooting A LOT of .22 even though it bores me.