What can we do as a community to reduce negligent discharges?
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
Theohazard
New member
But they're not just a danger to themselves, they're also a danger to the people around them. When I see a customer in my shop handling a gun with his finger on the trigger, I feel sorry for his wife and kids.xcc_rider said:
Also, every time someone like that has a negligent discharge, it gives fuel to the antis' arguments.
When someone lets a bullet go without meaning to:
1. There's no guarantee that only their property will be damaged and only they will be injured/killed. There was a shooting in the neighborhood where I lived as a child and one pistol bullet actually shot through a house. You could look in the bullet hole in the front and see the hole it made in the back of the house. So even a person who lives in a house alone could still potentially kill/injure a neighbor in an adjoining house or damage property other than his own. It's even easier to damage other people's property or cause injury to someone else in multi-family dwellings or similar structures. I know a guy who killed a person in an adjoining hotel room with a negligent discharge.
2. Even if the person who causes the discharge is the only person who is injured/killed/loses property, there is still significant potential for negative press for the gun community.
1. There's no guarantee that only their property will be damaged and only they will be injured/killed. There was a shooting in the neighborhood where I lived as a child and one pistol bullet actually shot through a house. You could look in the bullet hole in the front and see the hole it made in the back of the house. So even a person who lives in a house alone could still potentially kill/injure a neighbor in an adjoining house or damage property other than his own. It's even easier to damage other people's property or cause injury to someone else in multi-family dwellings or similar structures. I know a guy who killed a person in an adjoining hotel room with a negligent discharge.
2. Even if the person who causes the discharge is the only person who is injured/killed/loses property, there is still significant potential for negative press for the gun community.
Teach everyone you can about proper gun safety. In Infantry OSUT, the Drill Sergeants drilled it into our heads that you:
1) Always check/clear your M16 when you pick it up to make sure there is no round in the chamber
2) NEVER put your finger on the trigger unless you are prepared to fire
3) ALWAYS keep the gun pointed at the ground and be aware of where it is pointing at all times.
4) ALWAYS keep the safety on unless ready to fire. Basically you would learn to use your thumb to switch the safety on and off. If you raise the gun to pointing forward, you switch the safety off. When you lower the gun back into the low-ready position, you switch the safety back on.
And then of course there's the basic rules of gun safety, i.e. always assume the gun is loaded and never point it at anything you aren't willing to kill or destroy. Always keep the safety on unless ready to fire, but always assume the safety isn't working. Always assume the gun will fire if you pull the trigger.
Hammer/drill those into people's heads. One thing you can also do is when taking someone to shoot, start off with just a bolt-action and only load it with one round at a time. This way, it's much more difficult to have a negligent discharge. Giving them say an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine increases the risk a lot.
1) Always check/clear your M16 when you pick it up to make sure there is no round in the chamber
2) NEVER put your finger on the trigger unless you are prepared to fire
3) ALWAYS keep the gun pointed at the ground and be aware of where it is pointing at all times.
4) ALWAYS keep the safety on unless ready to fire. Basically you would learn to use your thumb to switch the safety on and off. If you raise the gun to pointing forward, you switch the safety off. When you lower the gun back into the low-ready position, you switch the safety back on.
And then of course there's the basic rules of gun safety, i.e. always assume the gun is loaded and never point it at anything you aren't willing to kill or destroy. Always keep the safety on unless ready to fire, but always assume the safety isn't working. Always assume the gun will fire if you pull the trigger.
Hammer/drill those into people's heads. One thing you can also do is when taking someone to shoot, start off with just a bolt-action and only load it with one round at a time. This way, it's much more difficult to have a negligent discharge. Giving them say an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine increases the risk a lot.
Theohazard said:
IMO, no one should ever take possession of a gun without first getting training. The reason I oppose mandatory training is because I believe gun possession is a right and also the anti's will manipulate it to inhibit gun ownership. But yes, lots of people for whatever reason will put their finger right on the trigger when first picking up a gun. My first experience with guns was in ROTC and then in the Army, so I was trained from the get-go.
But when I bought my first 12 gauge last year and let my sister hold it, FIRST THING she does is put her finger on the trigger and point it at the wall (AND THIS IS AN APARTMENT!).
Me: "HOLD IT HOLD IT! Lower the weapon and take your finger off the trigger."
That range video is a whole special level of negligence! I remember an ever sadder story about a kid who reached for the brass and shot his dad in the head. Whenever I take out new shooters, this is what I go with:
Teach them the four basic firearms rules:
- All guns are always loaded.
- Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
- Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
- Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Set appropriate expectations:
- You may get hit with hot brass. If that happens, put the gun on the table before going after it. Generally, it'll sting, maybe leave a red mark, but hot brass won't kill you. Also, if a female is coming along, I will flat out tell them to wear something with a high neckline so brass doesn't go down their shirt. My indoor range has a date night, and I always cringe when I see ladies dressed up nice for their 'man' with low cut shirts.
Stay close, and pay attention
- Stay close enough to them that if that happens, you can grab their gun arm and make sure it doesn't go where it shouldn't. I have had to do this to prevent someone from muzzling someone down the line. It is a little humiliating for the shooter, but I really don't care, they learn a lesson that could have been much worse!
Teach them the four basic firearms rules:
- All guns are always loaded.
- Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
- Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
- Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Set appropriate expectations:
- You may get hit with hot brass. If that happens, put the gun on the table before going after it. Generally, it'll sting, maybe leave a red mark, but hot brass won't kill you. Also, if a female is coming along, I will flat out tell them to wear something with a high neckline so brass doesn't go down their shirt. My indoor range has a date night, and I always cringe when I see ladies dressed up nice for their 'man' with low cut shirts.
Stay close, and pay attention
- Stay close enough to them that if that happens, you can grab their gun arm and make sure it doesn't go where it shouldn't. I have had to do this to prevent someone from muzzling someone down the line. It is a little humiliating for the shooter, but I really don't care, they learn a lesson that could have been much worse!
Short of legalizing a particular act, you'll never completely eliminate a particular crime. If enforcement is adequate but a particular crime is still a problem, then punishment needs to be increased until that crime is no longer a problem (even though it may still exist).
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
It is unfortunate that we propose solutions before the fact that probably won't occur. Research has shown that the vast majority of gun owners have no training at all. Now many might read up and have common sense but quite a few don't, it seems.
Mandate training - that starts a tremendous RKBA debate.
Mandate training - that starts a tremendous RKBA debate.
I think Theohazard is right. I see long time shooters regularly who think because they been doing this "all my life" they are perfectly safe handling guns. Some of these same guys are careless and ignorant of the laws of safety, and too arrogant to be teachable.
I think we help educate the ones we can, advocate training whenever possible, lead by example and stay situationally aware.
If being stupid, careless, or negligent was against the law, we could not build jails fast enough.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I don’t know any gun owner who opposes voluntary training of some kind. I know a lot who oppose mandatory training; because historically it is often used to restrict gun ownership as opposed to teach. And of course, any mandatory education offers opportunity for indoctrination too.
Like anything else though, if a community doesn’t self-regulate, some outside force may step in. So, I was hoping to inspire some discussion on how we can better manage that voluntarily.
spacemanspiff
New member
The world is full of idiots. There are thousands of videos online of people 'failing' at what should be obvious no brain activities.
Part of what fuels this idiocy is that fewer people believe in RULES, REGULATION, PRACTICE. For example, the vast majority of people know what is lawful and unlawful to do while driving. We all know that if we discover we need to make a turn and we are not in the turning lane, its UNLAWFUL to make that turn just because it is clear, right? Much less unlawful to stop in your current lane, and try to wait until the traffic clears, just so you dont have to drive further to get to your destination. Or speeding, we know thats unlawful, but few people obey speed limits. Stopping for the flashing red lights of a school bus, we all know thats unlawful, yet lots of people ignore it and pass a school bus that is stopped with the flashing red lights. Then they whine and complain when they get a ticket for their driving infractions.
Thats just one area of todays idiots. Those same people, might be able to tell you all the rules of handling a firearm, but if they cant be bothered to follow rules while driving, how can we expect them to follow rules when handling a gun?
People do wrong things because they dont expect consequences. Maybe if we saw these people being unsafe with their guns while at the range, they might get the hint if the rangemaster slapped them upside the head?
Part of what fuels this idiocy is that fewer people believe in RULES, REGULATION, PRACTICE. For example, the vast majority of people know what is lawful and unlawful to do while driving. We all know that if we discover we need to make a turn and we are not in the turning lane, its UNLAWFUL to make that turn just because it is clear, right? Much less unlawful to stop in your current lane, and try to wait until the traffic clears, just so you dont have to drive further to get to your destination. Or speeding, we know thats unlawful, but few people obey speed limits. Stopping for the flashing red lights of a school bus, we all know thats unlawful, yet lots of people ignore it and pass a school bus that is stopped with the flashing red lights. Then they whine and complain when they get a ticket for their driving infractions.
Thats just one area of todays idiots. Those same people, might be able to tell you all the rules of handling a firearm, but if they cant be bothered to follow rules while driving, how can we expect them to follow rules when handling a gun?
People do wrong things because they dont expect consequences. Maybe if we saw these people being unsafe with their guns while at the range, they might get the hint if the rangemaster slapped them upside the head?
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Pulling the trigger to disassemble a firearm for cleaning doesn’t require you to break the four rules. It just requires you to pay extra attention to rules 1, 2, and 4 while keeping your finger off the trigger until those conditions are satisfied.
A 5 gallon bucket of sand, a kevlar dryfire target, even an old tube TV screen you don’t mind sacrificing all make convenient backstops for disassembly or dryfire. The sand bucket and tube TV will even stop rifle rounds.
A 5 gallon bucket of sand, a kevlar dryfire target, even an old tube TV screen you don’t mind sacrificing all make convenient backstops for disassembly or dryfire. The sand bucket and tube TV will even stop rifle rounds.
I don't think training is the most important part - it's discipline.
Send a careless person or someone who lacks basic discipline to training, they straighten out in the training of course. Once there is no authority watching they are waving a muzzle around "oh it's not loaded" "oh the safety is on".
Give a careful person who has discipline a piece of paper along with their first gun purchase and they will religiously follow safe practices without any such training.
Send a careless person or someone who lacks basic discipline to training, they straighten out in the training of course. Once there is no authority watching they are waving a muzzle around "oh it's not loaded" "oh the safety is on".
Give a careful person who has discipline a piece of paper along with their first gun purchase and they will religiously follow safe practices without any such training.