What Caliber should our Armed forces be carrying as their side arm?

[Manco]

Since they can't use hollow points, the bigger the bullet, the better !!

Good point

Well, even if they could use hollow-points, the bigger the bullet, the better. That said, the difference is still not great, whether we're talking about JHP or FMJ.

Seriously, a fmj 9mm is a very lousy round. I shot a medium sized dog with fmj 9x18 twice.

Aren't we comparing .45 ACP with 9x19 here? Not that it would make a huge difference by any means.

The dog ran away. It showed up a few days later perfectly healthy except for tiny holes in it's sides.

As long as the dog was substantially larger than a chipmunk or chihuahua, I bet the same thing would have happened with .45 ACP. These pistol calibers all really just poke small holes through things. .45 ACP bullets may look a lot bigger than 9mm bullets when compared side-by-side, but they're both small in comparison to most dogs, let alone humans.

The .45 acp and the .308 seem great to me.

"Very lousy" versus "great" is a monumental exaggeration of the relatively puny difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, in my opinion. In a military combat situation, I would gladly take the capacity advantage of 9mm over the marginal increase in per-round effectiveness of .45 ACP. And 9mm is also somewhat better at penetrating light cover/concealment, by the way.

But this is 2010. The 10mm and the 6.5 Grendel make sense to me. The 10 is fat and very fast.

10mm or any pistol caliber for that matter won't make much of a difference in combat. However, I do strongly agree with you regarding 6.5 Grendel, which makes far too much sense to ever be seriously considered.

I'm sure pistols aren't used much in war. But having a powerful 10mm on you side as a backup has to help morale.

Eh, I doubt that most soldiers would care much, if at all. However, I think that most would be extremely pleased with an upgrade to 6.5 Grendel for their rifles.

 

[Rockhanger]

10mm

 

[Catfishman]

It appears you confidently disagree with me.

Originally Posted by Catfishman
The dog ran away. It showed up a few days later perfectly healthy except for tiny holes in it's sides.
---------------------------------------------------

As long as the dog was substantially larger than a chipmunk or chihuahua, I bet the same thing would have happened with .45 ACP. These pistol calibers all really just poke small holes through things. .45 ACP bullets may look a lot bigger than 9mm bullets when compared side-by-side, but they're both small in comparison to most dogs, let alone humans.

As a matter of fact I shot a dog with a Glock 21 loaded with Blazer .45 ACP ammo. The first shot stopped the dog, second shot knocked it over and the last destroyed it. Maybe the bullets hit the dog in more important spots, maybe not. But all three .45 ACP shots seemed to be lethal and neither of the two 9mm shots on the other dog were.

My assumption is that .45 ACP fmj bullets usually stop a threat much better than 9mm fmj bullets. I base this on the fact that a .45 has over 21% more surface area than a 9 mm. And a .45 has more energy. Mostly though, I base this on what I've seen with my 2 eyes.

Theory and mathmatics are great. But sometimes their are too many unmeasured variables that are unaccounted for. When in doubt, look at reality.
I've heard of many news stories in which someone was shot with a 9mm and wasn't stopped. I've never heard of anyone shaking off a good hit from a .45 ACP. Certainly it has happened very occasionly, but I've never heard about it.

BTW - I live on the first farm just outside of town. When people throw their unwanted dogs out on a farm they don't live happily ever after. They either starve or are shot by guys like me.

 

[Manco]

It appears you confidently disagree with me.

I'm confident that both 9mm and .45 ACP bullets are small in comparison with most dogs and humans, sure. There must be some difference in effectiveness, but I seriously doubt that it's much. Of the latter I have less reason to be confident, but that's my working hypothesis until proven otherwise.

I'm not trying to be a "know-it-all" and don't wish to appear as one, but let's just say I'm highly skeptical that such a small difference in projectile diameter would make such a vast difference in terminal effectiveness.

As a matter of fact I shot a dog with a Glock 21 loaded with Blazer .45 ACP ammo. The first shot stopped the dog, second shot knocked it over and the last destroyed it. Maybe the bullets hit the dog in more important spots, maybe not. But all three .45 ACP shots seemed to be lethal and neither of the two 9mm shots on the other dog were.

We don't know for sure why this was, and the sample size here is too small to derive any conclusions of statistical significance from.

My assumption is that .45 ACP fmj bullets usually stop a threat much better than 9mm fmj bullets. I base this on the fact that a .45 has over 21% more surface area than a 9 mm.

I'm not sure where you got that figure from, but a .45 ACP FMJ bullet does have about a 61% larger sectional area than a 9mm FMJ bullet. I would still say that they're both small projectiles traveling at fairly modest velocities for firearms in general, and therefore fairly close in performance, but even if .45 ACP were, purely for the sake of argument, 61% more effective than 9mm, that would still hardly explain the immense difference that you had described, in my opinion.

And a .45 has more energy.

Undeniably .45 ACP has greater momentum, which can be useful, but kinetic energy tends to be similar overall between the two calibers (at least in factory loads).

Mostly though, I base this on what I've seen with my 2 eyes.

Theory and mathmatics are great. But sometimes their are too many unmeasured variables that are unaccounted for. When in doubt, look at reality.

A very, very small sample of reality fraught with at least as many unknowns as the theoretical stuff, anyway.

I've heard of many news stories in which someone was shot with a 9mm and wasn't stopped.

And I would guess that most of those involved 9mm JHP bullets that commonly have a sectional area even larger than that of .45 ACP FMJ bullets, which are supposedly so effective. The bottom line is that bullets of both calibers need to hit something vital in order to affect a stop (at least physically, putting aside psychological factors for the moment), and I doubt that you'll find many people here who would be willing to deny that. My reasoning is simply that if a 9mm JHP bullet can miss like that, then so can less wide .45 ACP FMJ bullets (that would be used by our armed forces if they switched), meaning that it's not all about caliber.

I've never heard of anyone shaking off a good hit from a .45 ACP. Certainly it has happened very occasionly, but I've never heard about it.

I don't hear about .45 ACP shootings very often, period. It's becoming somewhat more popular with police departments over time, so maybe we'll hear about it more often in the future. I have heard anecdotes about police officers in Texas who were not pleased with the switch from .357 Magnum to .45 ACP due to what they perceived as reduced performance, implying that there must have been failures to stop with .45 ACP (even with JHPs). Those stories of late almost always involve the .357 SIG caliber that some tout as being superior to the likes of .45 ACP and .40 S&W, and the true successor to the .357 Magnum service revolvers (which were most often loaded with .38 Special or .38 Special+P cartridges).

What I suspect is that true to human nature, we tend to repeat and emphasize whatever fits our own views, the prevailing views of a community, or even just something people tend to always suspect due to bias (and there is plenty of that against 9mm for whatever reasons). Not everybody participates in this sort of activity, but ultimately it does affect what everybody tends to hear.

 

[MLeake]

Only if you want your debate to exist in a vacuum...

Burrhead51 said

The question was about the best caliber for our troops and that has nothing to do with what NATO or any one else is doing.

Apparently, you aren't one of the troops, because if you were you'd realize that what allies do, especially when we are involved in joint operations with joint lines of supply, has a lot of bearing on what is most useful.

It's not so easy to find .45acp in quantity outside the US. 9mm is abundant, can be procured all over the place, and is used by the majority of NATO and other allies.

Good luck finding a ready supply of 10mm. I have a 10mm at home. I like the round quite well. It would be useless in theater, since it couldn't be kept fed.

Going back to the M14 and Garand, I have a Garand, and enjoy shooting it. I can carry a lot more 5.56mm than I can .30-06, or even 7.62x51mm. In theater, that matters. For the same weight as my Garand, I can load an M4 up with optics, IR laser, and a spare magazine in a pouch on the stock. Hmmm...

Note: I have yet to hear any of my Army or Marine buddies say they wish they had an M14 instead....

Note2: I had a SEAL friend who liked the M14, but didn't like the fact that it was not M203 adaptable; a separate M79 had to be carried. One of the guys on his team did exactly that. None of the others wanted the complication. Yet another reason why caliber doesn't exist in a vacuum...

 

[Brit]

Bullets/placement.

We tend to look at so many things that just ain't so (did not Ronald Reagan say something like that?)

We cease and desist attacking people, when shot, for a few reasons, one being we think we should fall down, and on being shot, no matter with what, or where, we do just that, fall down!

In fact a few years ago, a story circulated, from Daly Ville, Chicago.

A very large (tall, and fat) Police Officer was working a pay duty, in a MacDonald's, in the kitchen, eating! When a young teen, 15? Don't remember, came in the back door, saw the Cop, swings up his sawn off .22 rifle, BANG!

The off duty was flung back into the fridge, burger bounced away, clutching his chest (no vest this night) and called loudly for a medic.

Kid ran away. No time at all, para medics on scene, moved hands from chest, opened clothing... Nothing! Missed shot! The Officer was convinced he was shot, and acted out the hit, and violent bounce away.

It is a shame, but sometimes reality needs to be injected into these threads (Sorry) the two normal ways that human beings stop fighting, and has been true for ever! 1/ a projectile strike to the Central Nervous System, more or less any calibre, 2/ copious blood loss, they just bleed out.

CNS hits, Luck, good trigger, good sights, shoot a lot, and again, luck by volume of fire. Bleeding out, same luck (good or bad luck!) depending if you are the shooter, or the shot! And here is where the huge strides in bullet design
over the years, has actually helped in this area, rounds like the WW Ranger, with its multiple projecting spikes.

If it expands as it is supposed to do, and that normally takes a while, unless the jugular, or femoral artery sustains hits that open those up, but good.

Then a minute and half? DRH! DRT.

 

[IMightBeWrong]

The 9mm is an excellent round and will penetrate vests better than the .45. I think the best round for replacing the 9mm would be. 357 SIG. I prefer the 9mm capacity options but the SIG round really is a hell of a performer.

 

[JohnKSa]

As a matter of fact I shot a dog with a Glock 21 loaded with Blazer .45 ACP ammo. The first shot stopped the dog, second shot knocked it over and the last destroyed it. Maybe the bullets hit the dog in more important spots, maybe not. But all three .45 ACP shots seemed to be lethal and neither of the two 9mm shots on the other dog were.

My assumption is that .45 ACP fmj bullets usually stop a threat much better than 9mm fmj bullets. I base this on the fact that a .45 has over 21% more surface area than a 9 mm. And a .45 has more energy. Mostly though, I base this on what I've seen with my 2 eyes.

I've seen a hog killed on video with a single shot from a .177 airgun.

I've seen another video where a hog ran away after being shot with a centerfire rifle.

Based on what I've seen with my own eyes in these two videos a .177 airgun is more effective than a centerfire rifle on feral hogs.

Ok, I don't really believe that--I'm just trying to point out the problem with making sweeping judgements about the effectiveness of a caliber based on a few instances. It happens that the hog was shot in the brain with the airgun and fell where it stood. The centerfire rifle shot was poorly placed and the hog probably survived.

There's a lot more to why an animal runs when shot with one caliber and falls when shot with another than simply the difference in the caliber.

 

[seig2006]

As long as the dog was substantially larger than a chipmunk or chihuahua, I bet the same thing would have happened with .45 ACP. These pistol calibers all really just poke small holes through things. .45 ACP bullets may look a lot bigger than 9mm bullets when compared side-by-side, but they're both small in comparison to most dogs, let alone humans.


Ive shot deer with a 230 gr FMJ .45ACP and it stops them in thier tracks... one shot. They drop in their tracks. I highly doubt that a 9mm would.... I know it wont. You cant compare a .45acp to a 9mm... Ive seen it....

 

[MTT TL]

The round? I would prefer the .40. But this is really only a marginal improvement.

Now the gun? That should be changed to a Glock or similar. The terrible ergonomics and design of the Beretta 92 do not lend itself to having the benefits of a pistol, that is light and quick acting. My fully loaded Beretta with blackhawk paddle holster weigh almost 5 pounds. I need both hands to take the weapon off safe. It is brick like and not very easy wield compared to many other guns. This is why most police departments and federal agencies never adopted it or got rid of it. With all the advances in the last 35 years one wonders why we are using a weapon that simply is not as good as what is out there.

 

[MLeake]

While I still think the realistic answer is 9mm....

... due to logistics, I do agree with the poster(s) who've advocated .357SIG. As far as effectiveness, flat-shooting, and light armor penetration, it's a great round. I've just ordered a new M&Pc .357 for CCW, myself.

But then logistics never go away, and I go back to 9mm...

If logistics weren't a concern, another caliber/pistol combination I'd recommend would be the 5.7mm in the FN Five-Seven. Twenty round capacity; ability to penetrate a kevlar helmet; mild recoil.

Granted, it's effectively a really fast .22, but it has definite applications.

And then logistics pop up again, and I'm back to the 9mm...

 

[Brit]

9mm and a dog

Let me set the stage, England in the early 1960s. Me with 3 pistols, .22 Star target pistol, .38 Chief Special, a 9mm Browning High Power.

Lady knocking on my door, panicking, "Our dog has rabies, and is going to get out of the yard" Now in reality, there has never been a case of rabies in England, ever.

Not sure how it was determined that I had to deal with this, that is a long time ago, but off across the road I go, and the Browning, loaded with Sub Gun ammunition.

The dog is throwing itself against the back yard door, the latch is bouncing!

Looks like foam in its jaws, I lift the window, whistle, the dog stands still, I shoot it. Not sure were the bullet hit, neck, head?

Instant collapse, the the animal guy shows up with his little Webly pistol, not required, long rubber gloves, dog in bag, gone.

It had distemper.

The hardball round, after going through the dog, hit the stone flag, bounced off both corners of the wall, through the closed outside toilet door, and buried itself in one of the support 2" X 4" beams, that held the toilet tank. And is most likely still there!

You pulled a chain to flush the toilet.

 

[Sarge]

Another vote for the 40 S&W here; GI load should be something along the lines of CCI's Blazer 40/165/FMJ flat point at an honest 1100 fps, although I like Remington's FMJ bullet a little better.

Both slugs shown above hit water filled jugs.

 

[hardworker]

I've shot deer with a shotgun and had them continue to run. Based off my experiments, 12 gauge buckshot is inadequate at stopping living creatures.

 

[Old Grump]

Sarge

Another vote for the 40 S&W here; GI load should be something along the lines of CCI's Blazer 40/165/FMJ flat point at an honest 1100 fps, although I like Remington's FMJ bullet a little better.

Apples to bananas comparison, try it with 45 ACP FMJFP 180 or 200 gr bullets for a one on one comparison.

My vote, 10 MM for shooters, 45 for most of the rest and whatever works for those who can't handle real guns. 9 MM, 38 spcl, 380, 22 whatever works. Nothing against 40 cal but there are better choices. If you can't handle a 45 then a 40 cal wont do you much good either.

 

[Catfishman]

I'm confident that both 9mm and .45 ACP bullets are small in comparison with most dogs and humans, sure.

? point ?

 

[Catfishman]

--I'm just trying to point out the problem with making sweeping judgements about the effectiveness of a caliber based on a few instances.

So only regurgitated facts and opinions. No place for "this is the experience I had, first hand".

I didn't make any sweeping judgements and I pointed out that nothing I said proved anything. I enjoy reading people's accounts of their first hand experiences. So long as there's no bragging or embellishment.

The OP thinks that the 9mm isn't the best choice for our armed forces. Further into the thread someone reminds us that the military uses fmj ammo only. To me the 9mm needs a modern HP design to be effective. I don't think the .45 or 10mm would be nearly as hampered by the fmj design as the 9mm.

This line of thought makes sense to me and the only experience I have with these rounds is in shooting nuisance wild dogs. The .45 worked perfectly in three out of three shots. The 9x18 mm failed completely in 2 out of 2 shots.

Actually shooting something teaches me much more than shooting paper or watching videos.

 

[Texshooter]

Single shot.

Nuclear tipped projectile.

Caliber won't matter.

nuf said

 

[BlueTrain]

So, to give this a twist, how does the .30 carbine (fired from a carbine) compare with any of the suggested rounds, particularly the .45 auto since that was the pistol round for the time the .30 carbine was in service. I suppose the thinking at the time was that it didn't matter what the caliber was if you didn't hit the target, so they issued out as many carbines as they could in place of pistols. Naturally that won't do if you already have a long gun but the idea keeps coming up every now and then. Something handier than a rifle but more effective than a pistol. Who does that leave carrying a pistol?

 

[prm]

I just recently got back from Afghanistan where I served as a member of a US Army MTT Team (Embedded Trainers). We were issued the M4 and the M9. The 9mm was OK with me. I'm a 45 ACP fan, but the high capacity of the M9 to me makes more sense. be nice to see something other than ball ammo.