What are your thoughts on open carry and why?
- Thread starter stephen426
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Arizona Fusilier
New member
Does anyone have any examples of an OC third-party person actually being shot at, first, suddenly, without warning, pursuant to a crime that otherwise would not have involved him/her?
I carry concealed mostly because it's too easy to slip something in your pocket, rather than "accessorizing" with belt and holster, especially when one is transitioning constantly from legal go to no-go carry situations...... something I'll bet most of us have to deal with.
Fact is, open-carry was the only legal means in Arizona until a couple decades ago. I only did so a handful of times in an urban environment.
Most people are clueless, and don't even notice. Most of the rest just assume your a cop or something, but think it must be OK., because why would you otherwise be carrying in the open?
Have things changed recently? Probably. I would not go to the mall OC, which is somewhat ironic. Now that I can conceal, I often have three guns on me while Christmas shopping!
I carry concealed mostly because it's too easy to slip something in your pocket, rather than "accessorizing" with belt and holster, especially when one is transitioning constantly from legal go to no-go carry situations...... something I'll bet most of us have to deal with.
Fact is, open-carry was the only legal means in Arizona until a couple decades ago. I only did so a handful of times in an urban environment.
Most people are clueless, and don't even notice. Most of the rest just assume your a cop or something, but think it must be OK., because why would you otherwise be carrying in the open?
Have things changed recently? Probably. I would not go to the mall OC, which is somewhat ironic. Now that I can conceal, I often have three guns on me while Christmas shopping!
The point of carrying a firearm is for self defense. While in public I believe open carry should be legal, but not the best idea. I know that anyone planning on shooting up a place will not change their mind because you have a gun on your hip. You will more than likely be the first one shot at. The point is that you should not be drawing attention to yourself, you should be avoiding it.
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`Bama_Mike
New member
I support open carry for all of those who wish to openly carry. I do not open carry even though it is legal where I live.
It (being targeted seemingly because of the visible gun) happens more than some proponents of OC might wish, but doesn't always make the major news. Just a handful after a quick search: (There were others listed, but the news pages for the links had been dropped after more than a couple years, it seemed.)
http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/05/01/clueless-open-carrier-robbed-gun-arizona/
http://koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/virginia-man-robbed-gun-while-open-carrying
http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/unarmed-man-attempts-to-rob-emu-student-carrying-holstered-gun/
If OC was actually a serious deterrent to being attacked, you'd think fewer cops (visibly, openly armed) would be likely to be attacked.
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I've been thinking about this a bit more. One of the issues with open carry is we do not always see the "successes." As I noted earlier I open carry around the house when I am outside working and often open or very loosely concealed carry when I am outside working and then need to run into the village for something. This is all rather rural out at the house so no big deal.
I remember three "incidents" while I was open carrying. What I remember the more I think about it was the one question I was asked all three times "are you a cop?" and the negative response I gave all three times.
The first one was before cell phones were incredibly common. Most people had them at the time but not like today. I pulled over to a lady on the side of the road with the hood up on her car. I make it a habit in these situations not to exit my vehicle - well it is pretty open farmland the ditches are deep enough to easily hide a person - or a few. I asked her if she had called for help and she explained she did not have a phone - so I offered to drive her to the gas station. She walked to the window, looked in, saw the gun, asked if I was a cop and then accepted the ride. I dropped her at the gas station.
The second one was a well dressed professional lady who looked horribly out of place. Pulled into my driveway and exited her vehicle. I was working outside and greeted her. She was polite and it took her about two minutes to notice the gun. She immediatly asked if I was a cop, I said no, she asked for directions and left. I still expect she was a census taker.
The third were probably the most suspicious. They had pulled up in an old white "kidnapper" van (ok it was a cargo van) in my driveway. There is a small hill ( a couple feet) that I was down which I had started walking up and shifted the brush cutter I was using to my left hand (I had intended to set it by the fence) and when the first man got out of the passenger side I adjusted how I was standing and paused because it struck me as a bit odd. They were selling something (vacuum cleaners maybe - I was not paying that much attention). When the second man got out of the van my free hand drifted towards my belt and the 1911 holstered on it - we still had fairly good separation between us but not the amount of distance I wanted. The same question about being a cop - I told them no and that I did not have time for what they were selling. They didn't push, got back in the vehicle, and left.
Do I think the gun "saved" me? In the first case maybe though I doubt it. In the second case I am pretty certain not. The third case was suspicious to me but not so much that I reported it. Thinking about this thread the question if I was a cop comes to mind over and over. I guess, once its established I am not an officer, I must come across as some extremist or something...
I remember three "incidents" while I was open carrying. What I remember the more I think about it was the one question I was asked all three times "are you a cop?" and the negative response I gave all three times.
The first one was before cell phones were incredibly common. Most people had them at the time but not like today. I pulled over to a lady on the side of the road with the hood up on her car. I make it a habit in these situations not to exit my vehicle - well it is pretty open farmland the ditches are deep enough to easily hide a person - or a few. I asked her if she had called for help and she explained she did not have a phone - so I offered to drive her to the gas station. She walked to the window, looked in, saw the gun, asked if I was a cop and then accepted the ride. I dropped her at the gas station.
The second one was a well dressed professional lady who looked horribly out of place. Pulled into my driveway and exited her vehicle. I was working outside and greeted her. She was polite and it took her about two minutes to notice the gun. She immediatly asked if I was a cop, I said no, she asked for directions and left. I still expect she was a census taker.
The third were probably the most suspicious. They had pulled up in an old white "kidnapper" van (ok it was a cargo van) in my driveway. There is a small hill ( a couple feet) that I was down which I had started walking up and shifted the brush cutter I was using to my left hand (I had intended to set it by the fence) and when the first man got out of the passenger side I adjusted how I was standing and paused because it struck me as a bit odd. They were selling something (vacuum cleaners maybe - I was not paying that much attention). When the second man got out of the van my free hand drifted towards my belt and the 1911 holstered on it - we still had fairly good separation between us but not the amount of distance I wanted. The same question about being a cop - I told them no and that I did not have time for what they were selling. They didn't push, got back in the vehicle, and left.
Do I think the gun "saved" me? In the first case maybe though I doubt it. In the second case I am pretty certain not. The third case was suspicious to me but not so much that I reported it. Thinking about this thread the question if I was a cop comes to mind over and over. I guess, once its established I am not an officer, I must come across as some extremist or something...
women in new york are allowed to be topless in public. I don't know about you guys, but seeing that would freak me out. its abnormal, and I'm kind of bothered by nudity.
Openly carrying a firearm is the same thing, imo. you have a high percentage of people who don't want to see that. It's going to freak some people out to the point of panic, a lot of people have such a fear of them that they might even run screaming.
That's just the blunt facts. People are going to be really upset to see a guy with a gun, and if it's some scruffy redneck, or whatever sort of person that upsets them already, it's going to be worse.
A long time ago, I saw a guy hauling a 1911 around in a grocery store. For just a moment, I freaked out. Guy was a plainclothes cop. he had his ID hanging from his belt.
A lot of people want that, want to freak people out, make a statement, scare folks, whatever. I don't think that open carry makes you safer, in fact, in a robbery the bad guys may give up and leave, more likely they'll ambush you and beat you and take your gun.
Don't subject people to this.
Openly carrying a firearm is the same thing, imo. you have a high percentage of people who don't want to see that. It's going to freak some people out to the point of panic, a lot of people have such a fear of them that they might even run screaming.
That's just the blunt facts. People are going to be really upset to see a guy with a gun, and if it's some scruffy redneck, or whatever sort of person that upsets them already, it's going to be worse.
A long time ago, I saw a guy hauling a 1911 around in a grocery store. For just a moment, I freaked out. Guy was a plainclothes cop. he had his ID hanging from his belt.
A lot of people want that, want to freak people out, make a statement, scare folks, whatever. I don't think that open carry makes you safer, in fact, in a robbery the bad guys may give up and leave, more likely they'll ambush you and beat you and take your gun.
Don't subject people to this.
Arizona Fusilier
New member
Thank you for your response, Fastbolt. One of those incidents happened in Phoenix, and I am familiar with it.
Those examples are an argument against OC, and point is taken. But they were not third-party victims shot down because they stumbled into a crime. They were the primary targets, and targeted, opportunistically, for robbery because someone thought they had something valuable. Not quite, but similar, to wearing expensive jewelry or walking around with your smartphone in your hand.
I was addressing the very specific fear, articulated several times in this thread, of being the first target of lethal violence in an effort by the bad guys to eliminate any resistance to their otherwise planned crime.
Again, thank you for the response. But I am still inclined to think the guy knocking off the Circle K would simply wait for the armed guy to leave....as opposed to turning armed robbery into murder in the first degree.
But hey.....does anybody else have an example of that? The *polite* challenge still stands.
Those examples are an argument against OC, and point is taken. But they were not third-party victims shot down because they stumbled into a crime. They were the primary targets, and targeted, opportunistically, for robbery because someone thought they had something valuable. Not quite, but similar, to wearing expensive jewelry or walking around with your smartphone in your hand.
I was addressing the very specific fear, articulated several times in this thread, of being the first target of lethal violence in an effort by the bad guys to eliminate any resistance to their otherwise planned crime.
Again, thank you for the response. But I am still inclined to think the guy knocking off the Circle K would simply wait for the armed guy to leave....as opposed to turning armed robbery into murder in the first degree.
But hey.....does anybody else have an example of that? The *polite* challenge still stands.
No, I don't. But there was an incident in louisiana, near NOLA, during which a guy who was carrying very, very openly, and some crazy dingbat attacked him after a long, and badly handled confrontation in a onvenience store. the goon had him backed into a corner and was beating him, and he eventually shot him.
God only knows how it would have played out if the gun carrier wasnt there, hadn't stepped in, so forth. He may have saved the store owner from a beating or murder. maybe not. This case just confuses the issue even further.
The entire encounter took only a couple minutes, and all you can say about it is that he thought that he was doing the right thing, and whether or not he handled it well is not certain. he wasn't charged, of course, because it appears that he did absolutely nothing that was illegal or improper.Just look at it carefully and think it through.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-station-robber-defensive-gun-use-of-the-day/
God only knows how it would have played out if the gun carrier wasnt there, hadn't stepped in, so forth. He may have saved the store owner from a beating or murder. maybe not. This case just confuses the issue even further.
The entire encounter took only a couple minutes, and all you can say about it is that he thought that he was doing the right thing, and whether or not he handled it well is not certain. he wasn't charged, of course, because it appears that he did absolutely nothing that was illegal or improper.Just look at it carefully and think it through.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-station-robber-defensive-gun-use-of-the-day/
In our state we have open carry and will soon have permitless concealed carry. Now we will have what I deem to be a rather bothersome combination. At least with the open carry law, you can aafford to spend a lot less time worrying about whether your weapon can be seen through your clothing, or if you accidentally expose it.
I think it gives away a tactical advantage, and I have a CHP, so I do not make it a habit.
However, it's legal here, so I worry less about printing.
I DO support the legality of it: there is no reason ( other than the mass cases of PSH it induces in hopolophobes and statists ..... and that I find amusing!) law abiding citizens should be barred from bearing arms.
However, it's legal here, so I worry less about printing.
I DO support the legality of it: there is no reason ( other than the mass cases of PSH it induces in hopolophobes and statists ..... and that I find amusing!) law abiding citizens should be barred from bearing arms.
Open carry?
I voted that open carry should be legal... but I believe there should be exceptions. Firstly the same exceptions that would apply whith concieled carry. Open carry is an option. depending on the situation or activities involved, open carry may be the better option and people should enjoy that option. For example open carry is allowed in Florida during outdoor activities such as hunting fishing and camping.
The problem I see with open carry is people using poor judgment when and where. I dont think anyone should open carry in a leg holster while grocery shopping. Some people give no consideration to others when exercising their rights. Of course this is with any constitutionally protected right. I see it as equally wrong that someone intimidate others with open carry, as it is for protesters to block traffic.
Personally I prefer open carry. It's more comfortable. It's easier to put on and take off. That being said I prefer to open carry in a secure and obscure manner. I carry a 4" K frame .357 as my open carry, in an old hand tooled belt holster with two speed loaders.
I voted that open carry should be legal... but I believe there should be exceptions. Firstly the same exceptions that would apply whith concieled carry. Open carry is an option. depending on the situation or activities involved, open carry may be the better option and people should enjoy that option. For example open carry is allowed in Florida during outdoor activities such as hunting fishing and camping.
The problem I see with open carry is people using poor judgment when and where. I dont think anyone should open carry in a leg holster while grocery shopping. Some people give no consideration to others when exercising their rights. Of course this is with any constitutionally protected right. I see it as equally wrong that someone intimidate others with open carry, as it is for protesters to block traffic.
Personally I prefer open carry. It's more comfortable. It's easier to put on and take off. That being said I prefer to open carry in a secure and obscure manner. I carry a 4" K frame .357 as my open carry, in an old hand tooled belt holster with two speed loaders.
It looks like I am with the majority on this, I think it should be legal, but it is (usually) a bad idea. I won't go into why it is a bad idea, it has been covered well enough already.
Why I think it should be legal, and helps CC'ers, has also been mentioned but can't be mentioned enough. I remember these boards 10-15yrs ago when CCW was less common. Many states were quite strict and technically if your cover garment lifted a little and your gun showed, you were breaking the law, and some states went so far as to make it illegal if your gun just printed. While states like FL may have passed laws to try to prevent overzealous anti-gun prosecutors from harassing law abiding CCWers who happen to print or bend down to pick something up, making open carry legal makes things more clear cut. I know as a part-time CCWer (a permit is near impossible here in MD so I can only carry out of state), I feel much more comfortable in VA and other open carry states than when in states without where I don't know how they may handle a little printing or my shirt riding up when shopping.
There are also times where open carry may be appropriate. When doing work in your own yard/on your own property, hunting, fishing, hiking and camping, at the range, in the aftermath of a disaster, etc. In most states without open carry laws there are exceptions for many of these activities (even here in MD you are definitely legal on your own property and you may be legal open carrying a handgun while hunting or at some gun ranges), but open carry laws make things more clear cut. Also, if you need to stop for gas or food (or whatever) on your way home, open carry laws make it easier...You can simply stop as you are and not worry about either covering up or putting the gun away.
So, legal open carry is good, but most of the time it isn't a good idea to do it.
Why I think it should be legal, and helps CC'ers, has also been mentioned but can't be mentioned enough. I remember these boards 10-15yrs ago when CCW was less common. Many states were quite strict and technically if your cover garment lifted a little and your gun showed, you were breaking the law, and some states went so far as to make it illegal if your gun just printed. While states like FL may have passed laws to try to prevent overzealous anti-gun prosecutors from harassing law abiding CCWers who happen to print or bend down to pick something up, making open carry legal makes things more clear cut. I know as a part-time CCWer (a permit is near impossible here in MD so I can only carry out of state), I feel much more comfortable in VA and other open carry states than when in states without where I don't know how they may handle a little printing or my shirt riding up when shopping.
There are also times where open carry may be appropriate. When doing work in your own yard/on your own property, hunting, fishing, hiking and camping, at the range, in the aftermath of a disaster, etc. In most states without open carry laws there are exceptions for many of these activities (even here in MD you are definitely legal on your own property and you may be legal open carrying a handgun while hunting or at some gun ranges), but open carry laws make things more clear cut. Also, if you need to stop for gas or food (or whatever) on your way home, open carry laws make it easier...You can simply stop as you are and not worry about either covering up or putting the gun away.
So, legal open carry is good, but most of the time it isn't a good idea to do it.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
https://activeselfprotection.com/guard-overwhelmed-by-armed-robbers/
Oops - the guy was targeted because he was openly armed.
Oops - the guy was targeted because he was openly armed.
Cosmodragoon
New member
It should be legal. There should be no laws against guns or gun ownership. That said, I don't like doing it. The few times I have, it has involved travel to other states where you can open carry without a permit but need a permit to carry concealed. Almost every time, it gave me reasons not to want to do it again. This is what I've learned.
A surprising number of people never seem to notice. Unfortunately, a significant number of those who do react poorly. I never met a disapproving word but body language can be pretty loud. In a populated area where a substantial portion of the population has little or no real-world experience with firearms and who has had their "understanding" largely formed by violent movies and television, scary news reports of tragedies, and institutionally entrenched anti-gun propaganda; seeing a gun on a civilian's hip can make people uncomfortable or outright scare them. Aside from not wanting to make people uncomfortable, scared people can themselves be very dangerous!
Then there is the other side of the coin. Some of the people who like guns or support gun rights will want to talk with you. Sure, it can be a nice conversation piece. Yes, some of these people are totally reasonable fellow gun-enthusiasts like the forum members here. Some are people who don't own or carry guns but have thought about it or think it's "cool". They are curious about the novelty of you doing it and if they are also outgoing, you will have a new friend. This can be good. It can be a great opportunity for positive public relations. It can even be a great opportunity to meet interested members of the opposite sex. (That was a fun surprise.) Overall though, it isn't. Some of the people who approach you can be a little too excited or a little too outgoing.
I actually had a semi-drunk guy approach me in the supermarket. I had already noticed him staring out of the corner of my eye. When he approached, his body language had me worried. Then he very loudly congratulated me on "taking a stand" and "being prepared" for "the terrorists" and the "(expletive deleted)"s coming over the border. Some other shoppers, including some families with children, were then watching with concern as a man carrying a gun was part of a very loud conversation about minorities and welfare recipients. He called me "brother" and tried to pat me on the shoulder as I sidestepped and excused myself to a safer distance. That was a very bad and realistically unsafe situation.
The point is that it makes waves and draws attention. Those are not things I want to do when carrying a firearm.
A surprising number of people never seem to notice. Unfortunately, a significant number of those who do react poorly. I never met a disapproving word but body language can be pretty loud. In a populated area where a substantial portion of the population has little or no real-world experience with firearms and who has had their "understanding" largely formed by violent movies and television, scary news reports of tragedies, and institutionally entrenched anti-gun propaganda; seeing a gun on a civilian's hip can make people uncomfortable or outright scare them. Aside from not wanting to make people uncomfortable, scared people can themselves be very dangerous!
Then there is the other side of the coin. Some of the people who like guns or support gun rights will want to talk with you. Sure, it can be a nice conversation piece. Yes, some of these people are totally reasonable fellow gun-enthusiasts like the forum members here. Some are people who don't own or carry guns but have thought about it or think it's "cool". They are curious about the novelty of you doing it and if they are also outgoing, you will have a new friend. This can be good. It can be a great opportunity for positive public relations. It can even be a great opportunity to meet interested members of the opposite sex. (That was a fun surprise.) Overall though, it isn't. Some of the people who approach you can be a little too excited or a little too outgoing.
I actually had a semi-drunk guy approach me in the supermarket. I had already noticed him staring out of the corner of my eye. When he approached, his body language had me worried. Then he very loudly congratulated me on "taking a stand" and "being prepared" for "the terrorists" and the "(expletive deleted)"s coming over the border. Some other shoppers, including some families with children, were then watching with concern as a man carrying a gun was part of a very loud conversation about minorities and welfare recipients. He called me "brother" and tried to pat me on the shoulder as I sidestepped and excused myself to a safer distance. That was a very bad and realistically unsafe situation.
The point is that it makes waves and draws attention. Those are not things I want to do when carrying a firearm.
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Kevin Rohrer
New member
Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. Bad idea.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
It was common in the initial OC debates for folks to claim that they had super duper retention gung-fu and always walked around in Condition Orange. You couldn't take away the gun from them!
As we've repeatedly said, few experts recommend the practice except for hunting or hiking in the boonies.
As we've repeatedly said, few experts recommend the practice except for hunting or hiking in the boonies.