What are you people doing???

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I have to agree with Pluspincs statements.

If you own a semi-auto the hasn't jammed, or malfunctioned in some way then you simply haven't shot it enough. Don't get me wrong, I like SAs. I carry one off and on duty. However, the facts remains that due to their more complex design they just can't be as reliable as a revolver. There's simply a lot more to go wrong. I currently carry my Kimber Custom off duty. This was only after firing 1000+ rounds through it without a malfunction. I'm not saying that it won't jam because it will, sooner or later. However, my long experience with the 1911 allows me to quickly clear the piece during a malfunction so I feel comfortable depending on it. I shoot a lot of reloads too (my own) but wouldn't dream of depending on them for serious purposes. I use them strictly for training and I advise anyone else to do the same.

When a semi-auto of good quality malfunctions 99.9% of the time it's one of two things, the mag or the shooter. Too many people immediately trash their factory mags upon purchase and buy that latest, greatest wonder mag that you can stuff one or two more rounds into. Did the factory mags work, or did you even try them ? The 1911 is a prime example. John Browning designed that mag to hold seven rounds, not eight or nine. I learned long ago to stick with factory mags. One or two more rounds just isn't that important. I also prefer to stick with things that have a long well proven track record. Is the .40 S&W a good round? Probably. Is the .357 Sig the best thing since sliced bread? Maybe (but I doubt it). Is the Glock the best pistol on the face of the earth? (see the aforementioned response) When these things have been around and doing their job for several decades then I'll give them serious consideration. Until then I'll stick with what works instead of going with the flavor of the month.

Other than the mag the shooter is invariably the problem. Limp wristing is a common problem, but how many of us macho men are going to admit to that? Most new gun owners make their first (and possibly only) purchase
based on what they see their local LEOs carrying, or what they see in the movies. Sales of the Beretta 92 tripled after Lethal Weapon, the same for the S&W Mod. 29 after Dirty Harry. The average gun owner (most of you don't apply, else you wouldn't be spending time here :) ) is better served with the simplisity of a revolver. As much as I hate to admit it, so is the average LEO. That's a matter of training though, or a lack thereof.

As for all of the guns flying apart around here? I would suspect that a lot of shadetree gunsmithing is to blame in a lot of cases. However, who's going to admit to it? "I was tinkering with my new pistol and that sear wouldn't budge. I pryed on it with my screwdriver and it broke. This gun's a piece of s*@t !" I don't think we'll be seeing any posts of that nature.

One more thing to remember is that anyone can write a book or call themselves a "master". With the internet it's even worse. Anyone can put anything they please online. Surf the net and enjoy, but take it with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences be your guide.
 
Be careful about failures you hear of second hand, too.

I was at LEO range waiting to qualify earlier this year. A group in front of us, not from my department, was on the line. At one point one of their instructors came in swearing to another range officer. It turned out that a substantial number of their failure to fires and gun jams were directly the result of...failure to chamber a round. Yep. That's right. Nobody wanted to admit the mistake, so the shooters chambered a round, raised their hands, and complained about the reliability of their Glocks. I think they made the shooters in question pick up all the brass...

Erik
 
Well, yes, I am aware of one such situation... I was told this by a friend, who had it from his brother in law... well, it seems there was a 30 US Carbine M1 that cold be definitely linked to the battle of Gettysburg. It was fired regularly with GI ball and nary a malf over the next 130 years, however, the complaint was, what do the initials U.S.G., carved into the buttstock, mean??

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel!
BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Agreed Judge,
I am new to the sport of Handguns and to be honest when I was shopping around for my first handgun I nearly gave up after doing alot of research and hearing so many complaints and so forth.
Verdict?
I bought a used S&W 4516-1 this gun had a few holster wear marks but damn its reliable!! I either got lucky or S&W are fantastic (2or3 jams in 2000 odd rounds)
Next purchase was a new Ruger .22/45 with 5 1/2 inch bull barrel, I also read about how bad these guns are and how much they jam well I have shot mine maybe 700-1000 rounds and have had 3-4 jams.
I seem to be extremly anal about cleaning them after every range session ie takes me about 2 hours to clean both guns.
Like some people have already posted "nothing to complain about when nothing is wrong" so am I lucky ? did I buy a great used gun and a great new gun?
 
No Hayden you're not lucky, in fact you bought two very good handguns. The only difference is that you're following good maintenance proceedures. You'd be suprised at how many people clean their guns once in a blue moon, never mind about lubrication. Quite a few *experienced* shooters will fire a new gun right out of the box without lubricating it first.

Quite a few of my co-workers only clean their guns *before* going to the range. So they don't get gigged on a dirty gun I suppose. An ass backwards way of doing things IMHO.
 
Have to agree with most of what has been said. I worked at Wyoming Police Equipment Sales for several years. We saw a lot of problems and the vast majority were shooter related. However, I have purchased new revolvers with poor timing, messed up forcing cones, too much end shake, etc. They still shot, but they needed help.

On the other hand, I have had two 1911 style pistols that didn't run right from day one. While rare, a lemon does come along once in a while.
 
You guys are lightweights with only 2 - 5K rounds fed through your guns. I shoot around 1000 rounds a week in 2 or 3 practice sessions and a weekend match through the SAME gun. It now has around 90K through it and I bought it used. Once the gun is set up to run, the only jams I encounter are due to ammo or magazines. Here are a few things I learned over the years to increase the reliability in my guns. Keep the interior of the mags clean and the springs and follower in good condition. I even apply a light coat of silicone in my mags. This works especially well for hi-caps. Stay away from crap mags like Pro-Mag amd MecGar, etc. unless you don't mind clearing jams or rebuilding them with quality parts. The sheet metal making the mag tube is so thin that if you drop it on a hard surface you will have to bend it back in shape. If you're serious about your ammo chamber check it with the barrel or a chamber guage.

I used to shoot IPSC matches at an indoor club with a cement floor. I always got a kick watching the guys with the crappy mags drop them on the floor and see them fly apart sending the spring somewhere never to be seen again. The bullets, follower, and baseplate ended up in different parts of the range.

[This message has been edited by NAD (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
NAD, MecGar mags are not crap. In fact they make the factory mags for many brands of handguns. Never had any problems with MecGars.
 
Hey NAD,

Mec-Gars are good mags. Now Shooting Stars, those are crap.

Anyway, shot most of 'em, broke a few of 'em, personally seen other people break (almost) the rest of 'em. Like a previous poster said, people like to push stuff to the limit, and I almost never clean my stuff except my carry gun. I like to see how far they will go before they keel over. I remember watching the Colt 1991 slowwwwwww down as I got up to 1,000 rounds of reloads. Eventually the slide stop failed and the front sight came loose.

If anyone hasn't broken or jammed at least a few guns, they are not shooting enough!
 
Dave AA - Rich?? No, I'm single and don't have to buy baby shoes and panty hose. I'm trying to get my USPSA master card and unless you happen to be a natural or gifted shooter, which I'm not, it takes a lot of work. Sorry if I offended you Dave AA, but don't worry, I'm sure there are things in your life I would be envious of as well. However, If you were to express them somewhere in a public forum I wouldn't be petty enough to express my envy by calling you a braggard.

[This message has been edited by NAD (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
I've bought used Glocks, Sigs, Kahrs, and HKs and never had a malfunction that was not ammo or magazine related.

Some of the problems you're hearinvg are also related to hack reloaders pumping out large volumes of rounds and under or overcharging them either getting a kaboom or an obstructed barrel.

You certainly can clean you guns after every shooting session BUT that should not affect reliability. Its a fine idea if yo have the time but any quality handgun like a Glock or Sig can go 2-400 rounds between cleanings if the powder is clean because residue just doesn't build up. But you still need to lube them. HKP7s are designed to run dirty so you can really put some rounds through them before cleaning them.

Now - SW autoloaders like the Sigma aren't reliable. Had a Sigma Value 40 for three days and it did jam every 5/6 rounds. We tested different factory ammo and used different factory magazines. Problem didn't disappear.

Dealer immediately sent back to factory and I got my money back. For SW, only the revolvers would I buy. stay away from those Sigma's - they are JUNK! The 39,49 series aren't bad though, just bulky and heavy with cheap magazines.

BOS (back on subject) Good clean burning ammo is the key. If you shoot that dirty Russian or American-made ammo, you need to clean your guns freqently just like if it was a 22 rimfire. But for the Glocks, Sigs, and HKs, they were designed for combat and extended use without cleaning.




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The Seattle SharpShooter
 
NAD,

If you don't like being called a braggard then try not to be so abrasive by calling everyone else lightwieghts. If you're going to piss in the punch don't expect to be invited to the party.
 
I remember when I bought a Beretta 92FS Inox. I cleaned it and lubed it before I fired it. I was using the factory Beretta mags with Federal Classic rounds. I fired 7 shots and it jammed. No biggy, cleared it and fired more. All in all, it jammed once after the 7th shot, roughly the 70th shot and finally the 200th or so shot. After putting 250 rounds through it, it fired like a dream.
Now I have roughly 5000 some rounds (I know, I know, I'm an lightweight) fired through it and no problems at all.
Could it be the Beretta had some kinks in it and firing 250 rounds through it fixed it? Maybe. Could it be bad mags? Maybe. Could it be me? Maybe. It didn't matter though because I didn't give up on the firearm. I didn't go cussing and screaming about how terrible Beretta's guns are.
Sometimes, you just need to break the gun in. Most of the times, it's the mags or the shooter.
 
224 - I'm a braggard, huh. Yeah, well I'm arrogant too. If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch Mr. LEO. You may be a self righteous control freak while on duty, but here you have to play in the sand box with the rest of us "civilians". You're not the gate keeper of this particular party. So wipe the powdered sugar off your mouth and go stroke your favorite bodypart.
 
NAD,

Did I say you were a braggart? If you read again I think that you'll see the statement as "If you don't like being called one..."

"I'm arrogant too"
Well I guess I'll have to take your word for it since I don't know you. I for one refuse to make personal judgements about people from the internet. I could suggest that you do the same.

I do advise you to take the moderators advice and "simmer down". Come on, give us a kiss. :)

Group hug anyone ?
 
You three sound like a bunch of WOMEN!

Eagerly awaiting a comeback,
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
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