What are you people doing???

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Judge Blackhawk

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I have never heard of so many malfunctions and guns falling apart?

What are you people doing to your guns? I have been shooting for well over 25 years and I have never had the malfunctions and total distruction of weapons as I am reading in this forum.

For example, my first revovler was an RG .22 that looked like a Ruger Single Six, it was cheap then and cheap now. Dont laugh, I still have it and it still shoots quite well. This gun has been shot so many times that I dont know how many rounds have been put in it.

I have a Sig Sauer P-228 that has been shot close to 2000 rounds without a malfunction.

I have a Ruger Mark II stainless slab side that so far has had four bricks of .22 from various ammo companies without a hitch.

Both of my kimber stainless Class and stainless compact have had over 1500 rounds a piece through them and most of them were from my reloads and the cheap government hardball ammo. The only problem I experienced was my Kimber Classic Stainless did not cycle right, but I found out that the slide was to heavily greased. This was remedied and the guns have functioned flawlessly.

All of my Sigs, the P-220, P-228 and P-229 have been shot without so much as a jam.

All of my revolvers have worked fine and shot well right out of the box.

By the way, every gun that I own is factory stock. No modifications what so ever.

I am just wondering what the deal is here, because when my friends and I go shooting, we take several guns and shoot from daylight to dusk on about every other weekend, and I dont see any problems with their weapons.

There was one guy who had a 15 round single stack clip for his 1911 that did not function well at all. He paid 5 dollars at a flee market for the clip. Guess you get what you pay for.

Well, I dont mean to start any flames as ya'll call them, but are you guys cleaning your weapons properly afer each shooting session and do you clean a new weapon before you shoot it.

Thanks for listening.

Judge Blackhawk

Governments ability to control is directly related to its ability to disarm. Judge Blackhawk
 
i'll back you on this one judge. any problem i ever had was either due to magazine function or choice of ammo. and each time there was a quick fix. any gun i own gets the road test from hell to make sure everything is a-ok. of course i completely take down and clean after a day at the range, which is why i only bring a few toys at a time.
i went shooting last week and one of the guys i went with had nothing but problems with his fn (mfg shall remain nameless) did a quick takedown to give it a looksee and lo and behold there was little if any form of lube anywhere. quick lube and no more problems.
 
I clean all my guns after shooting, no matter if it 1000 rounds or 1. I clean new guns before firing. I search various resources to learn all I can before using any new gun.
I have a few different types/models/brands, and my Kimber is the only pistol I've ever had malfunction. My G23, on the other hand, has over 13,000 rounds by my last count without any problem whatsoever.
However, I also wonder sometimes if some people maintain their weapons properly. Of course, I think some of that may be written off to the "the more negative, the more vocal" theory. <-- that's not a flame! That's why we come here! to find solutions to our problems!
And Hob-Nob, of course :)
 
This is the beauty of the internet and forums such as this one. It allows people all over the world to express ideas and share experiences about their firearms. When TFL members share their stories about malfunctions, it only serves to remind me and everyone else that anything man-made will never be perfect. I am sure that 99.99% of all TFL members are responsible firearms owners who take pride in their weapons. Sh*t happens and unfortunatly malfunctions do to. I look at malfunctions as something to learn from. Hey, at least the majority of the malfunctions did not occur in a combat scenario!
 
I know what you mean Judge, I have had very very few jams or breakages with any gun, and the vast majority were from guns someone else had put together at home, not factory pieces. I never heard so many tales of stoppages and breakages till I went on TFL.
 
I agree just about every problem ive ever had was due to Faulty magazines, In just about every case or reloads that would not chamber,which would be my fault!
 
I was about to ask the same question.. Although I have only been shooting for about 6 months now I have shot over 2,000 rounds through all my guns combined and haven't had any problems. I always clean my guns even when they are new out of the box, b/c that was what i was told. I thought I was the only crazy one?
 
I'm glad someone else said this :). I've got about a dozen Beretta 92's that I shoot regularly. Most have average mileage on them (4000-5000 rounds) but I have one with 20k through it and one with over 50,000! And these aren't all wimpy rounds either. I've shot some of the most poorly made reloads the world has ever seen... everything from squibs to +P+++++ (OK, so I stink at reloading).

My point is... I've not had one single breakage or gun-related failure with these guns. Not one. Zilch, nada, zero! But... when you hear some of these military heros talk about them... it seems that they can't get a clip through them without getting themselves a stovepipe jam or catching a slide in the face. What's the deal?

Ok, that's the end of my first and last rant.

In all fairness, I did have a Colt 1991 fall to pieces on me within the first 100 rounds so I guess I can't claim perfection either. I've met many people who've had flawless results with those guns as well. I suppose I don't have a point anymore do I? ;)
 
Wait a minute.......you people are saying we are supposed to clean our guns after using them? :D

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Judge, you got it. The guns I own are all used exept my wifes Rossi. The only gun I have ever had any problems with was a Jennings/Bryco (go figure). If you keep them clean and give your firearms the respect they deserve they should last a lifetime.
 
Judge Blackhawk;

You make a very good point sir and I wish you the best of luck now and in the future with all your guns. Like anything mechanical, the better you care for them the better and longer they will last and I am certainly not telling you anything you haven't already indicated....

However, I work with all kinds of people with all kinds of guns, almost every day either on the range or as my students.

I think you and other replies have pointed out two of the major causes of many problems; 1) being care and maintenance and 2) being the ammo supply (magazine feed) not withstanding jams from improper ammo or faulty reloads....

But there are two other sides I deal with quite often. 1) is the fact that guns of yester year were of better craftmanship than we are experincing with current production models (not with every manufacturer, but in general) and therefore I have seen more than I would like of fresh out of the box lemons.

And 2) during some of the training and competition that is of interest and becoming more popular, some guns are being subjected to torture test ever time they are taken out by a lot of folks that might not be familar with cause and effect...

I applaud your guns that have fired over 2000 rounds without a failure, but, sir, my tactical students shoot 2000 rounds in three days, some times more. I have a Glock G22 with well over 90,000 rounds and have had several failures, which is not bad and certainly not by the standards we often hear on this forum that you make reference to, but then we probably are hearing the worst and seldom the best.

But, I have to agree with you that both on the range and this forum I hear and witness a lot more failure than in the past.

Best Regards.....
"Train to Defend, Train to Survive, Train to Win"
 
Att: Your Honor;
I take care of my gun's and equipment, as well. I think we all live, to shoot another
day? Therefore, to provide 100% reliability
these instrutment's need a little TLC. I have
seen fellow LEO's throw their weapons in the
locker at the end of the day; and forget about it until the next shift. They do this
for weeks at a time; until the shift commander pulls a weapons inspection. But yet, they complain if the weapon malfunctions.

Regards,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Message edited by Dan H. Ford on 02-07-00
 
I have to admit, I've had thoughts along the same line. My pistols and revolvers have pretty much been jam/malf free. The only times are when they are my fault - over long .45 ACP reloads comes to mind. And only one other when the extractor on my Combat Com'dr broke. I installed a new one and it was off and running again.

That being said, we have to acknowledge that breakdowns do occur. If they didn't there wouldn't be any need for gunsmiths except for adding features, etc. There wouldn't be busy repair centers at all the manufacturers plants. I think the reason we see a lot of malfs reported here is because the people here represent a whole lot of guns. And those same people, including those responding here want perfection from their pistols and rightly so. So, bottom line, I think we're going to hear about a lot of failures simply because of the very large number of guns and makes represented.
 
Do you all clean and strip your guns after every time you shoot??? I should stop now but I never knew when to stop. :) I often go days and prob over 500rds before I clean a gun. I may put a little break free in the slide rails, and other high wear areas. And maybe run a brush and cloth down the bore and back to shooting. Very few MFs and most ammo related. "High primer"
BTW I do detail strip/clean all of my guns at least 2X per year. :) Whether they need it or not.
 
We did a reliability study a few years ago documenting EVERY shot that was fired in training classes. I was surprised at the results.

Revolvers. Only TWO problems. One was a backed out primer (reload) and the other was a screw fell out allowing cylinder mechanism to fall out when opened.

Semi autos. HUNDREDS of failures, but before you get upset read on.

1. NO brand was more reliable than another. Glock, Colt, Sig, S&W etc., don't make junk. A clear DEAD HEAT.

2. New guns failed far more often than used.

3. Reasons for failures.
A. Handloads
B. Non-factory magazines
C. Shooter error. Didn't know how to
operate the gun.
D. Unknown

Gosh, the top three reasons for failures are NOT gun related. If you use handloads, a non-factory magazine and aren't familiar with the gun you have problems waiting for you.

The unknown catagory could have been limp wristing or other reasons, but the failure rare was far beyond acceptable. Some shooters love to talk about their INDIVIDUAL gun, which means little. When I was recently in NY city a training officer told me that in EVERY qualification class they have had multiple failures. What is interesting is that nobody wants to ask how many LEO guns FAIL in actual use in shootings. The number is higher than we would like to admit I am sure and sort of a question nobody wants to ask for fear of what it will reveal.
I stick to my conclusion that SA's are NOT nearly as reliable as a revolver and are NOT a good fleet gun to issue to the masses. The problems are just to well documented from AD's to excessive fire in actual use. Diallo as an example.
I carry a 1911 or G17 or Hi-Power clone on a regular basis. So I am not anit SA. I'm just a realist that has a ton of experience and grow tired of excuses why the guns fail on the line. These are guns brought by cops, civilians and guards that think they know how to use them and depend on the guns for their safety. These are not plinking or target guns, but self-defense guns.
With so many non-factory mags on the market we have to be damned careful of what we stuff into the grip of that gun.
I reload (Dillon 550B) and I'm good at it, but I would NEVER consider carrying a reload for self-defense.
As for familiarity with the gun, the real truth is the "average" shooter will shoot les than one box of ammunition per year. There are obvious exceptions but I have to deal with masses of shooters and deal with that street reality.
I urge serious shooters to avoid fads, gimmiks, toys, and fantasy and face realistic goals and efforts if self-defense is the issue. If you are just having "fun", knock yourself out. For "fun" I shoot some real bizaar stuff. Fun is part of the shooting, but the self-defense stuff is as serious as a heart attack.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
I think the above posters have covered the main problem, TFL covers a whole lot of guns and a post about how well my (fill in blank) works gets boring quick. The other reason I think you hear about so many here is the type of shooting these people do. A large number of people here shoot a lot of fast self-defense courses ( in matches or practice) and that is very hard on the guns compared to say an afternoon of plinking at tin cans. Nothing wrong with either, just ones a whole lot harder on the equipment.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JJR:
In all fairness, I did have a Colt 1991 fall to pieces on me within the first 100 rounds so I guess I can't claim perfection either. [/quote]
JJR,
My buddy bought a 1991 Compact. He fired 6 rounds through it and the rear sights fell off. Other then that, the 1991 fired like a dream.



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Svt
NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

Rangers Lead the Way
 
I bought a S&W Model 39 from a cop friend of mine about a year ago. It was manufacture din 1974. I had fired over 3,000 rounds through it without a problem. Last month the safety/decocker lever broke mid-shaft, but the gun kept shooting. I replaced the part and it's fine.
I reload about 90% of my own ammo with jacketed/plated bullets and a very clean burning Scott Solo 1000 powder and Federal primers. I have gone over 500 rounds between cleanings several times, but I am trying to cut it down to every 200-300 rounds. I shoot this pistol regularly in IDPA matches and it just keeps on ticking. Tick...tick...tick...

Neil Casper
 
Simple, people having problems are more likely to post messages...

It's human nature. People complain. If people have no one to complain to, they find someone to complain to. :) Anyway, think about your average enthusiast. You shoot regularly with what, 10 or 20 people? That's not many.

Think about the Internet. Millions. Think about this Web site. Hundreds of members. Technical people flock to the Internet. Technical people push their equipment to the bleeding edge. Therefor, technical people have more malfunctions and, since they're technical, will report it more.

Reminds me of a mechanic that told me that Subarus suck. Why? Because he has to service two or three of them a week. Well, that's no coincidence...he's the only Subaru mechanic within 150 miles of his area. Of course he'll see two or three a week. But think about it...three or four cars per week in a 150 mile radius is a low ratio.

OK, I'm starting to ramble and babble now...

/Sciri/

[This message has been edited by Sciri (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
Sounds like everyone has covered the bases pretty well (especially pluspinc.)

Could another problem be that we now have P+ and +P+ ammunition being fed through these weapons more than they should?

We also represent the above average shooter (according to pluspinc). I figure I put at least 3600 to 5000 rounds through 3 handguns last year. I also cleaned and lubed each gun after each session.

Haven't had any malfunctions or failures yet.


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Peace through superior firepower...
Keith

If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."
 
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