What are the best non-JHP .38/.357 bullets for self defense?

[USSR]

As for terminal ballistics, it's a crap shoot...
The bullet exits the target, it's wasted energy, so pointless to have 'Super Duper' penetration.
Keep in mind how thick a man's torso is, anything that penetrates more than about 8" is pretty much wasted.

The idea of a bullet exiting the target, as opposed to remaining in the target, being "wasted energy" is one of the biggest ballistics fallacies on the internet. Energy, as determined by foot pounds of energy, is nothing more than a mathematical formula. This mathematical formula has never killed anything. What kills is massive tissue damage resulting in the cutting of blood vessels, resulting in a rapid loss of blood pressure leading to loss of consciousness and possibly death. Obviously, a bullet that provides complete penetration results in more tissue damage than a bullet that stops inside a body. In addition, a wound that includes both entry and exit hole promotes an increased amount of blood loss. IMHO, any shot that does not result in complete penetration is a failure.

Don

 

[Mobuck]

"In addition, a wound that includes both entry and exit hole promotes an increased amount of blood loss. IMHO, any shot that does not result in complete penetration is a failure."
This theory has merit for hunting BUT IMHO is questionable in a SD scenario where there may be innocents beyond the target or the possibility of ricochet in an unknown direction.
The reason I carried swaged HP in a 357 was to limit overall penetration and reduce the chances of bouncing a bullet into something I hadn't intended to hit.
FWIW
I've killed about as many animals w/o a pass thru as I have with full penetration.

 

[USSR]

Got no problem with limiting penetration, as long as the amount of penetration includes an exit wound.

Don

 

[Don Fischer]

Don't discount the expansion capability of lead hollowpoints at snubnose velocities. The bullet in the middle and the bullet on the right were both fired out of my snubnose revolver. Also, make sure you use a heavy for caliber bullet to ensure good penetration.

Don

For most people picking the right bullet is pretty much a crap shoot! Those bullet's look great, especially the one on the left! Did you cast them or buy them? I like the mushroom with them, I think it help's slow down penetration, has to help keep the bullet from coming out. I worry about complete penetration and getting someone I really didn't want to shoot!. I only use the 9mm as a carry gun But plink with a 38 Spec. I use mostly 150gr hollow points in it. I put silicone in the HP cavity to help t expand but haven't tried them to see what happens. What mold, if you did those, did you use and how hard is the lead?

I said for most of us it's a crap shoot because we will never really know what the bullet will do until it's fired into flesh. Thinking, maybe next hunting season a could fire a couple rounds in to a dead deer and recover them.

 

[USSR]

For most people picking the right bullet is pretty much a crap shoot!

You got that right. Those bullets were cast and fired by me. The bullet on the left is a MP 454423 224gr bullet that came out of my Colt Gold Cup at ~ 800fps. The other 2 bullets are 158gr MP 359640 bullets fired from my S&W Model 19 snubbie with a load duplicating the FBI Load. The key to getting hollowpoints to mushroom at sub-900fps velocities is to use lots of tin and reduce the antimony dramatically. This is anathema to the commercial bullet casters, as tin is expensive and antimony is cheap. So, you will always get overly hard bullets from them. Note the penta point bullet in the middle. Increase the antimony and reduce the tin, and one or more of the petals will break off. I would estimate that the BHN of my alloy is ~ 8. Most of the commercial casters offer you a choice between 12 and 18 BHN. Since Elmer Keith developed his loads for the .44 Magnum using an alloy with a BHN of 11, what does that tell you?

Don

 

[mikld]

"In addition, a wound that includes both entry and exit hole promotes an increased amount of blood loss. IMHO, any shot that does not result in complete penetration is a failure."
This theory has merit for hunting BUT IMHO is questionable in a SD scenario where there may be innocents beyond the target or the possibility of ricochet in an unknown direction.
The reason I carried swaged HP in a 357 was to limit overall penetration and reduce the chances of bouncing a bullet into something I hadn't intended to hit.
FWIW
I've killed about as many animals w/o a pass thru as I have with full penetration.

Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?

Later; Any verifiable reports of such a happening? Or is all the talk just speculation?

 

[Metal god]

I’m sure there is all know kinds of that data out there . Athought not handgun related , im sure the Las Vegas shooting has a lot of that data . When speaking hand gun projectiles , there’s likely a good amout of that data using the the 1911 and 45acp ball ammo do to how much that combo has been used in war .

My point is im sure there is tons of data , it’s finding it that would be the hard part .

 

[mikld]

FWIW, My math sucks but the formula for finding RPM of a bullet is MVx729/twist rate in inches (muzzle velocity times 720 divided by twist rate). So, outta my 38 special a bullet going 800 fps is spinning about 32,000 RPM, which I think is fast enough for an Inceptor/ARX bullet to work...

 

[TruthTellers]

FWIW, My math sucks but the formula for finding RPM of a bullet is MVx729/twist rate in inches (muzzle velocity times 720 divided by twist rate). So, outta my 38 special a bullet going 800 fps is spinning about 32,000 RPM, which I think is fast enough for an Inceptor/ARX bullet to work...

It's not the RPM's that does it, it's the low weight and high speed that contribute to its effectiveness. The first few inches the flutes in the nose do their thing due to that rotation, but then the drag causes the light bullet to tumble, so there's really a double effect with the Polycase ARX design.

BTW, I've seen that the Polycase bullets in .380 penetrate deeper than a lot of .380 JHP's do. Other than the Hornady XTP bullet that is.

 

[Eddietruett]

Don't discount the expansion capability of lead hollowpoints at snubnose velocities. The bullet in the middle and the bullet on the right were both fired out of my snubnose revolver. Also, make sure you use a heavy for caliber bullet to ensure good penetration.

Don

What is the bullet in center with square sided hp? Looks cool

 

[JERRYS.]

since you ask for non-+P I guess you need the least recoil. and for that my wife uses a Federal 110gr. Hydro-shok H.P. reduced recoil load in her J frame.

 

[USSR]

What is the bullet in center with square sided hp? Looks cool

That's the MP 359640 using the penta point pin. MP Molds typically use the Cramer method of casting hollowpoints. Usually there are several different types of pins that come with the mold, and you can change them out as you wish. Yes, the penta point hollowpoints are cool.

Don

 

[Mobuck]

"Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?"
Not from a handgun bullet but absolutely assure everyone a rifle bullet is quite deadly on a deer @ 25' after a pass thru. I'm not going to volunteer to be the "test dummy".

 

[Rifletom]

Yeah, some interesting answers here. I hope to never have to find out, ever. But, in .38spl, I'd think a 158gr swc, probably a +P load. I really don't know in .357 mag. Maybe the 125gr HP's? Don't know. A few of the 158 swc's from a .38 would be nasty tho. Just my opinion. Never do I want to find out tho.

 

[Marco Califo]

I once worked as an armed guard, often in or near "young people". Over penetration is a real concern. Innocent bystanders, or your relatives in your house, even in a different room. I carried 38 hollow-points (in a 357), so as to combat over penetration.
I once read a case study of a California murder where the perp was convicted of murder of a person in a different room who was shot through a wall, intentionally, staged as an accident. It was not a magnum. Regular LRN 38, not even +P.
My point is over penetration is a very real issue. Tests of 10mm and 357 hollowpoints went through of 24 inches of ballistic gelatin, and kept going. 9mm 115 FMJ clean through a politicians skull in AZ (and she lived). In my house, I have a Glock G26 in reach full of 147 grn hollow points. I live alone. If I did not live alone, the G26 would be full of 115 grn hollow points, which would also be secured, rather than just hidden. I have heard that plain old double ended 146 wad cutters, being soft lead, work reasonably well for defensive use.

 

[Jim Watson]

Elmer Keith used a 173 gr SWC, Lyman 358429. It killed game pretty well, when he was limited to the smallbore, but I don't think he ever shot a man.
There was a hollowpoint version but I gather he did not use it much.

There are the LBT WFN bullets and full wadcutters that chop an even bigger hole.

I once read a case for the old Super Police 200 gr bullet on the grounds that it was marginally stable from a S&W 18.75" twist and would "tumble" on impact.

Lightweight gimmick bullets? No thanks, not until they have a record on animals and felons.

 

[USSR]

Lightweight gimmick bullets? No thanks, not until they have a record on animals and felons.

I'm with you Jim. Years ago, I would take my S&W 686 with me deer hunting. I was using the Winchester 145gr SilverTip .357 Magnum load that everybody raves about. I found that it kinda worked okay with the classic thru the rib cage shot, but then one year I was presented with this situation. I was hunting in a tree stand when I heard a nearby hunter's shot. A doe came limping over to me and lay down pretty much right under my tree. So, I figured I'd do the hunter a favor and put his deer down for him with my .357 Magnum. I aimed at it's back in such an angle that the shot would carry into the chest cavity. At the shot, the deer got up and ran off. I was astounded. This was early morning, and in the afternoon I returned to the same general area, only this time hunting on the ground with my shotgun. A doe came limping along towards me and I dispatched it with my 12 guage. When I got it home and removed the hide, I found a perfectly mushroomed .357 bullet imbedded in the heavy layer of fat on the back of this large doe. The bullet never hit bone and never even came close to entering the chest cavity. I quit using the .357 Magnum for deer and moved on to the .45 Colt, of which lack of penetration is not a problem. The point being, penetration is important. There is a reason why the FBI specifies that a round must meet a specific amount of penetration (a result of the disastrous FBI Miami shootout), and not just rely on expansion. So, all my cast bullets are heavy for caliber hollowpoints using an alloy that is suited for the intended velocity, and also takes into consideration the size of the hollowpoint. I do not rely on bimetallic (jacketed) bullets that may expand but fail to give me the penetration that is needed. Just MHO.

Don

 

[mikld]

"Regarding through and through shots and innocent "victims/bystanders"; has anyone calculated the velocity of a bullet(s) that have penetrated, completely, a human body? And the effects on another body at perhaps 10 feet away, or 25 feet?"
Not from a handgun bullet but absolutely assure everyone a rifle bullet is quite deadly on a deer @ 25' after a pass thru. I'm not going to volunteer to be the "test dummy".

Yep, but I thought the thread was dealing with handgun SD bullets...

 

[reddog81]

Over penetration is a real concern. Innocent bystanders, or your relatives in your house, even in a different room. I carried 38 hollow-points (in a 357), so as to combat over penetration.
I once read a case study of a California murder where the perp was convicted of murder of a person in a different room who was shot through a wall, intentionally, staged as an accident. It was not a magnum. Regular LRN 38, not even +P.

I'm not sure what your point is. Any modern bullet can penetrate 2 layers of drywall and still be lethal. Any bullet that meets any minimal criteria of penetration is also capable of over penetration if the shot isn't a solid hit. The question is whether any innocent bystander has ever been hit and injured after a shot passes clean through a bad guy.

Additionally it's just as likely another bad guy is standing right behind bad guy number 1 and you get 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[Metal god]

The question is whether any innocent bystander has ever been hit and injured after a shot passes clean through a bad guy.

Short answer is YES . Do I have a link for you proving it , No . Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence . To even think a bullet has "NEVER" past through a bad guy and hit a innocent person is unreasonable . IMO who it passes through and who it hits after is irrelevant . The question/debate is simply can a bullet pass through one human target and have enough energy to enter another human . Does anyone here think that's impossible ?


16" gell block , I'm 6'3" 275lbs and my torso is maybe 16" deep . What if it's going through a 140lb tweeker dude with a 10" deep body .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1j090EYHuo