What Am I Doing Wrong??? PICS!!

L

l98ster

New member
Hey everyone,

Just got back from the range. I was testing some new loads for my Smith Model 52.

Both groups were shot at 15 yards off a rest.
Both are identical loads: .38 148gr HBWC, 2.8gr titegroup, Winchester primers, mixed brass.

These 2 groups were shot one right after the other. Both groups are 5 shots.

These were shot after about 15 practice rounds, so a cold barrel wasnt an issue.

Group 1:

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Group 2:

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Is there a reasonable explaination for this? Could the mixed brass be varying the group sizes? Trigger control? Or do I just suck???

-George
 

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Concentrate on followthrough even off a rest.
Low velocity makes the .38 wadcutter very sensitive to followthrough and for some reason the '52 is said to be worse than other guns with the same load.
 
Jim Watson,

Its funny you said that the 52 is "less forgiving" than other pistols. I have a ruger blackhawk and colt python, and when using the same exact ammo as the 52, both of those revolvers are more forgiving.

Im not trying to make excuses for my poor grouping with the 52, but I have noticed that as well!


-George
 
I don't know exactly what you're doing, 198ster, but your first group tells me it's neither your pistol nor the ammunition. Here's what I suggest to students and ask them:

Are you firing all your shots in succession or one at a time and lowering your pistol for a rest of at least three breaths between? If you think that can't make a difference, try it.

How's your breathing? The rule of thumb in bullseye slow fire shooting is to take a fairly deep breath, let out a third to half, make your shot within five to ten seconds at most, and continue to hold until you've lowered the gun.

Are you dry-shooting at least 100 dummy rounds a day? If you're not, you're walking directly past an opportunity to improve your trigger and breath control quickly and easily.

Are you using the pad or first knuckle of your finger to pull the trigger? I'd guess from your second group you're using the crook of your first knuckle. Switching to the pad invariably seems to take a year. It doesn't really, but a.) it seems that way, and b.) your groups will widen until you're well along in the transition.

Does the gun fit your hand? Do you consistently shoot markedly better or worse with other guns? Do you have to stretch for the trigger? Is the trigger so close it feels weird to use the pad of your index finger?

Do you get the same results shooting from a bullseye (single-handed) position? Do you get the same results from one of the twin-handed positions? Are you scrunched down when shooting from a rest? If you are, your results are unavoidably going to be inconsistent.

If you shoot five rounds of .38 special, switch guns to shoot five of .22 long rifle, switch back to .38 special, back to .22 long rifle, et cetera, do you see more or less inconsistency? Most shooters see more, and it's often the result of taking a bite out of flinch. Most of us aren't aware of flinch, but it's an excruciatingly common cause of inconsistent shooting.

Have you checked for NGS? That's "new gun syndrome." An awful lot of us shoot better with new guns. That's always worth checking for.

Best of success to you, eh? Going from the kind of accuracy you're capable of to consistent accuracy of that degree is the hardest, yet most rewarding shooting there is.
 
Are you allowing the barrel or frame of the gun to contact a hard part of the rest? Sometimes that can cause a bit of bounce during discharge that will widen groups.
 
OK I'll take a crack at it, your first group was a nice little knot the second group had three fliers to the left. You can shoot a good group the gun shoots strait and the ammo is good, you don't get a group like the first one by accident. Something changed with the second group and at 15 yards off a sandbag I'd rule out the ammo and gun. It sounds bad but the biggest variable is normally the shooter (don't ask me how I know).

Sometimes after shooting a very good group a shooter can psyche themselves out. Try not to worry about what happened with the second group (my coach used to say, " Shmedly shot that one"). Instead think about what you did and how it felt with the first one (positive mental reinforcement). In any case you don't suck, that's a nice group!

I normally attribute fliers to the crooked bullet theory.:D
 
I'll venture a SWAG (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess).

You shot the first group, following all the fundamentals, and then looked at it, and "WOW this load works". Then you shot the second group, but your head was still on the first group, you forgot your fundamentals and subconsciencly, got off the front sight and was trying to see the bullet holes.

Its all in the mind.

By the way, aint the Model 52 about the sweetest gun you ever shot.
 
You shot the first group, following all the fundamentals, and then looked at it, and "WOW this load works". Then you shot the second group, but your head was still on the first group, you forgot your fundamentals and subconsciencly, got off the front sight and was trying to see the bullet holes.
Click to expand...

Thinking back, I think you might be right. I spend a lot of time and effort in making up loads. I just "concluded" a load for my python (3.3gr W231 148gr HBWC). I am now working on a load for my model 52.

When I saw that group, I did get a little excited because I thought that i finally found a great load and it didnt take me that long.

Overall, I guess we can conclude that the pistol and load is woirking the way it should, and that its just me who needs the practice!

-George
 
Your groups seem to be good, have you already ruled out the sights? Maybe just a habit with your grip, but your shot placement makes me question the sights.
 
In my not so humble and invariably correct opinion you may have grip and operator head space and timing issues.

Group #1 is just fine so your fundamentals are not the issue. Assuming that the funny thing up and left of your group was your aim point you need to figure out two things.

Thing 1 - Are your sights out of whack? Either stick that puppy in a ransom rest, thereby removing the meat ware from the equation or find someone who's aim you trust and remove yourself from the equation. If the sights are off then fix em.

If the sights are not the issue its time to work on the operator's head space and timing. On to Thing 2.

Thing 2 - Examine your grip. I tend to shoot low and right myself and it's because I have the dirty little habit of squeezing the grip of my pistol with the tips of my fingers. This pulls my muzzle down and right. I have to focus on putting my grip pressure straight through the front/back axis of the grip to beat this flaw.

Of course this assumes you are right handed. If you are wrong handed you might be squeezing with your finger tips or jerking the trigger. Group like that though, jerking is not likely.

Thing 2.5 - Examine your self. My deep and again flawless psychotic, I mean psychic, sense tells me that frustration and conscious thought were the culprit that made group two the abomination it is. You probably saw where group 1 was and worked extra hard to make group 2 better. You thought too much and your brain got in the way of your body. Ask any really good athlete (shooters count too) how much they actually "think" about what they are doing when they do it and they are likely to tell you that they don't think, they just do.

The Japanese have a concept of "no mind" or "mushin" where the flow of action is allowed to happen without the interupting influence of critical thought. Look it up in wikipedia. They explain it much more better than I can. In a nut shell, your hand knows what to do but your brain is getting in the way. If I let myself pay attention to where my shots fall during a string of fire I can pretty much guarantee that my group will grow. If I just shoot my groups stay tight.

Of course I may be wrong and you just suck and don't deserve to have that poor Smith. PM me and I'll respond with shipping info. That poor little pistol deserves better than you.:rolleyes:
 
First group, one hole. It don't get better than that, except for one bullet size hole. Second group, you lose focus. Got tired, or rushed, or who knows, but it has to be you. Sorry to be so blunt.

There is only one thing I can think of if it isn't you, and that would be your barrel leading up from the first group's shots. That would be an extreme and unlikly thing, especially considering its only 5 shots, and usually when leadign badly, you don't see one hole groups either.

So, odds are you did something different enough to let your group open up.
 
Thing 1 - Are your sights out of whack? Either stick that puppy in a ransom rest, thereby removing the meaThingt ware from the equation or find someone who's aim you trust and remove yourself from the equation. If the sights are off then fix em.
Click to expand...

The sights are definitly off. I wasnt to concerned with POI right now. I was just looking for the group sizes. I will be adjusting the sights next time im at the range this weekend.

As far as it "being me", Im GLAD that it is. As long as my equipment can do it, I just have to keep working at it (which I love). If the equipment is not capable of it, thenit is all for nothing (except give me an excuse to buy another gun!!)

So, if you think its me, tell me and be blunt!!

-George
 
My worst groups invariably come when I'm trying to shoot my best groups. It's that simple, overconcentrating and trying too hard causes mental errors and more widely spaced rounds.

I'm no bullseye shooter but I strive for accuracy. I have good days and bad days at the range and sometimes good groups followed by bad ones. Or, I'll overlap three rounds and then, get two flyers. It's definitely not my shooting technique. When I'm on my game I'm as good as anyone. But, I often find myself working so hard at being perfect that, in doing so, I'll foul things up. For example, I have a tendency, when I'm really concentrating, to hold the gun on target too long before pulling the trigger. That causes tremors and widens my groups. Or, I'll start looking at the hole created by my previous shot and start saying to myself "gotta hit that again" or, if it's a flyer "gotta avoid that." That widens my groups, too.

My best groups at 25 yards occur when I just think about putting everything in the middle of the black and relax. Cutting things too fine will sometimes cause me to miss and, occasionally, to miss badly.
 
Did you check the barrel for fouling?

The last time I had something that wild happen I looked inside the barrel to find out that one of my rounds had severely leaded up the barrel. I don't know if it was a miscast lead round (too soft), or it was loaded too hot, or what, but the barrel looked like a smoothbore and it took quite a bit of time and work with a lewis lead remover and brushes and such to clean it back up.
 
All the above are good suggestions, but I think it is the normal "let down" after a great effort. Sports coaches deal with it all the time, and we see the results sometimes on TV.

Jim
 
It's hell not to be perfect ! My ? is you in training for a shooting match or defending yourself ? If it's the later, you look good to me.;) Don't worry to much about it, more range time is all you need.
 
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