What about the next presidental election

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Rebar, I believe that you continue to misundertand my position. What I said merely reflects a fact of American politics - that few people find a candidate, party, platform, etc. with which they agree across the board on every issue.
I will be working my utmost to ensure a Republican defeat in 2008, regardless of their candidate's views on guns.
I think your being a hypocrite. You flat-out stated you're going to work against a party regardless of their candidate's views on the issues. Then you try to play yourself off as some kind of moderate? I think I understand your position just fine.

You do know that Hillary is 99.99% likely to be the democratic nominee, and that 99.99% of people who believe in the RKBA, which is most of this board, will never in a million years vote for her? And since she voted for the war you find so horrible, how will you explain supporting her?

I'm sure you'll rationalize it somehow. But don't expect to go to a gun board, and post liberal/leftist nonsense, and not get challenged, if not laughed at.
 
Useful idiots

Somehow, I think that there are more important issues than guns at stake in the next election.

Typical Demosocialist sheeple mentality. The Bill of Rights is expendable; it has no meaning in today's "modern" society. Let's piss it away in exchange for the advancment of progressive (that would be socialist) political issues.

There is absolutely nothing more important than the right to arms - and the rest of the Bill of Rights. Ask the defenseless people in Sudan/Darfur who are being brutalized and slaughtered on a daily basis by their own government. Ask the descendants of those who survived the Stalin purges, where Stalin exterminated 17 million of his own countrymen. Ask the survivors of Tiennamen Square. Ask the survivors of Hitler's death camps.

Only an idiot would vote for a politician who advocates the removal of firearms from citizen's hands. Such people are "useful idiots" as they were dubbed by Lenin, the progenitor of today's freedom-hating, gun-banning Demosocialist politicians.
 
Well Rebar...my politics are hardcore Liberal..so are most of my friends..

I own guns, I shoot guns, they own guns, they shoot guns...

Where is it written that gun owners must subscribed to a certain set of principles and or beliefs?

Your continued bash of liberals does nobody any good.

Who would an anti rather talk to? Somebody like me, who might agree with some of thier social concerns? Or somebody like you, who is far to far to the right to have any meaningful dialogue.

The antis probably feel awhole lot less threatened by people like me, rather than stereotypical rigid minded people like yourself. Why cant you see, every time you spout rhetoric all you do is damage the firearms movement with your close minded thinking?:D
 
And don't tell me about how we've gotten CCW in so many states: that has NOTHING to do with politics on the national level...
Well, isn't that what conservatism is all about, state rights, state government being primary? Those there republicans fighting for the RKBA, with democrats fighting tooth and nail to stop them. How about a little credit, or even gratitude?
That was gonna sunset without people pushing for it
And Gore and/or Kerry wasn't going to push for it? Get real. You act as though there was some kind of conservative/libertarian wet dream of a candidate that lost to Bush, one that would set everything to right. Wake up. We'd be in a lot of trouble if one of those jokers got elected, rather then the very real gains we made.

And we can lose those gains very easy, just let the democrats get the majority and/or the presidency, and thing will get bad real quick. You think Hillary won't push for a new AWB, one that includes ALL semi-auto weapons? Or signs an executive order closing down the CMP? She's already promised to do all that and more.
 
Hunter Rose--WHEN, for gods' sake?!?!?



Soon, the Supreme Court will be the big turning point and is why it was so vital for Bush to have won. I can't imagine what would have happened if Kerry had been nominating these 2 seats:eek:
Takes alot of work to get wakos like the 9th Circuit decisions to be overturned. Having the branches in Republican control pretty much guarantees 2 conservatives getting put on the court!:D
 
Your continued bash of liberals does nobody any good.
As opposed to the continuous Bush/republican bashing that you do?
Where is it written that gun owners must subscribed to a certain set of principles and or beliefs?
Last I looked, it was the liberal/left and the democratic party that wants to take our guns, our children, our free speech, our flag, our hard-earned pay, our judeo/christian culture.
Why cant you see, every time you spout rhetoric all you do is damage the firearms movement with your close minded thinking?
How is my thinking closed minded? I just want to be left alone by the liberal/left nanny state. I want to be free to enjoy my consitutional rights, in a country governed by the consitution, not by liberal/left wing fiat. It's something I shouldn't even have to ask for, but I have to fight for it every day.
 
459----Where is it written that gun owners must subscribed to a certain set of principles and or beliefs?



Nowhere----that gun owners MUST subscribe, however it is documented where MOST do-----Republican. You have to know that as a Liberal and/or Democrat, you are certainly in a huge minority as far views towards guns.
 
>Well, isn't that what conservatism is all about, state rights, state government being primary? Those there republicans fighting for the RKBA, with democrats fighting tooth and nail to stop them. How about a little credit, or even gratitude?<

Ok... so you're saying that having Repubs essentially in charge of the Federal government has been responsible for CCW at the state level? And PLEASE don't start on the "give credit, and gratitude"... I'm one of the bloody lobbyiests for CCW here in WI. And I DO understand how the system works (meaning I know the Feds have NOTHING to do with CCW at all)...

>And Gore and/or Kerry wasn't going to push for it? Get real. You act as though there was some kind of conservative/libertarian wet dream of a candidate that lost to Bush, one that would set everything to right. Wake up. We'd be in a lot of trouble if one of those jokers got elected, rather then the very real gains we made.<

Ok... now it's becoming clearer! You think that, since we have a status quo, we should be thankful! Sorry man... I don't buy it. They want my vote, they can actually DO something for it. And again, what exactly WERE the "gains made", besides the AWB sunsetting as scheduled, and the recent lawsuit protection?

>And we can lose those gains very easy, just let the democrats get the majority and/or the presidency, and thing will get bad real quick. You think Hillary won't push for a new AWB, one that includes ALL semi-auto weapons? Or signs an executive order closing down the CMP? She's already promised to do all that and more.<

And this is the standard line used every single time an election comes up! "Vote for the Republicans, kids! If you don't, the mean ol' Democrats are gonna come take away all your guns!"

Ya know, the boogyman didn't work against me as a kid: I just started sleeping with a broadsword...


Not to say I doubt that the Dems (especially Hillary) desire a complete ban of all civilian weapons, down to Nerf fencing equipment. However, there comes a point where we (as gun owners) have to wake up and smell the coffe. We keep hearing that the Republicans are "the party of gun owners". That's bull... how about some truth in advertising? "The Republican Party: the Party of not raping your gun rights further than they already are"...
 
Bashing Bush? lol thats a good one...check my posts..very few if any actually mention Bush.

Last I looked, it was the liberal/left and the democratic party that wants to take our guns, our children, our free speech, our flag, our hard-earned pay, our judeo/christian culture.


Why is it they want to take your children? Have you been deemed an unsuitable parent by the courts? Who wants to take your flag? As for your hard earned pay, wouldnt you actually have more social benefits under a democrat if you were at or below average income? And wouldnt you only pay less taxes if you were in the small category of super rich under the current administration? Your Judeo/christian culture....what does this mean?>

Does this mean if you arent a Christian then you have no place in society? Why is it some feel the need to intermingle their fundementalist ideals with politics...as much as you want to be left alone..your supposive fundementalist viewpoints would infringe on my rights and my desire to be left alone..

how do you have to fight for it every day?
 
*sigh*

>Soon, the Supreme Court will be the big turning point and is why it was so vital for Bush to have won. I can't imagine what would have happened if Kerry had been nominating these 2 seats
Takes alot of work to get wakos like the 9th Circuit decisions to be overturned. Having the branches in Republican control pretty much guarantees 2 conservatives getting put on the court!<

You'll pardon my taking my que on this from the Georgia Satelites: "No huggie, no kissie until you make me your wife". They want my vote, I want to actually SEE something...

Wouldn't even have had to be successful: a bill introduced and defeated by the Dems to repeal NFA 34 (or GCA 68, OR the 86 MG ban). Not winning is one thing. Not even trying, unpardonable. If there is finally a 2A case before the SCOTUS, THEN I'll start to forgive the Repubs...


>Last I looked, it was the liberal/left and the democratic party that wants to take our guns, our children, our free speech, our flag, our hard-earned pay, our judeo/christian culture.<

YOUR judeo/christian culture there, man. Actually, it always bothers me that we are unable to seperate the religion of many Americans from the society: while it may have influenced the formation of the US, it isn't the only thing...

edited to add
>Mocking it doesn't make it any less true.<

No... but it DOES point out the lie of their sales pitch. They are NOT the "party of gun owners", but "the party of not raping the 2A more than it already is"...
 
No... but it DOES point out the lie of their sales pitch.
Just because it's not the amount of progress you want, doesn't make it a "lie". It's called politics, you do what you can while still being electable. If the republicans were in the minority and a democrat was in the white house, we'd be looking at a very grim time, that's for sure. And haven't the democrats given you enough "huggie" and "kissie" to prove where they stand?
YOUR judeo/christian culture there, man.
OUR judeo/christian culture. It never stops amazing me that some feel such hostility towards the very culture that gave us the concept of human rights and freedom. You don't need to be a "fundimentalist" to appreciate what Western culture has given us. You do have to be stupid to agree with the liberal/left's plan on committing cultural suicide.
 
>Just because it's not the amount of progress you want, doesn't make it a "lie". It's called politics, you do what you can while still being electable. If the republicans were in the minority and a democrat was in the white house, we'd be looking at a very grim time, that's for sure. And haven't the democrats given you enough "huggie" and "kissie" to prove where they stand?<

Not the amount of progress I want? Oh... you mean a measurable attempt AT progress! That's asking too much, huh?

Sorry man... if that's asking too much, maybe I shoul follow my father's example and expat to Thailand. The promises have been made, over and over and over again: "vote for us, and we'll protect your gun rights!". And all they've really been has been empty promises. Mostly just ignored, in some few cases, actively broken...

As for the Dems: yes, I DO know where they stand. And no, I DON'T agree with them. I will say that at least anti pols are honest about their stance (might not LIKE their stance, but they HAVE been fairly honest about it until recently. Look at your own sig).

>OUR judeo/christian culture. It never stops amazing me that some feel such hostility towards the very culture that gave us the concept of human rights and freedom. You don't need to be a "fundimentalist" to appreciate what Western culture has given us. You do have to be stupid to agree with the liberal/left's plan on committing cultural suicide.<

"Western culture" includes a LOT of things that have nothing to do with "judeo/christianity". How 'bout that whole concept of "democracy", huh? Some "christian value" THAT is, right? Or maybe you'ld like to look at "religious tolerance"... offering violence against those not of your faith is REALLY something to brag on, ain't it? Yes, there are "christian values" that are good, and I have no plan on turing this into a religion bash. But saying "OUR judeo/christian culture" shows a lack of understanding on your part. Yes, the Founding Fathers were Christian, and their faith probably DID influence some of their ideas. But saying our culture is "judeo/christian" is kinda stretching it...
 
your idea of cultural suicide is my idea of a good culture...


contrary to what you think..human rights, democracy and such forth are a combination of many events from the laws of Hammerabi, to Grecian and Roman senates, to Magna Carta, to your friends the French and Rousseau...

cultural suicide, you read that in a pamphlet somewhere?
 
Oh... you mean a measurable attempt AT progress! That's asking too much, huh?
I happen to think that the AWB expiration, the manufacturer protection, and the work the state level republicans have done, is progress. If you don't, well, we'll have to agree to disagree then.
"Western culture" includes a LOT of things that have nothing to do with "judeo/christianity".
And it includes a LOT of things that are. A lot more than you realize, evidently. Without it, there would be no democracy, no concepts of right and wrong, of our individuality and human rights.
offering violence against those not of your faith is REALLY something to brag on, ain't it?
What violence? You're mistaking it for islam, perhaps?
 
actually wahaibbism aside...Islam historically has been shown to be much more tolerant of other faiths and or practices as oppossed to Christianity.
 
I think this fits here

Why Did it Have to be ... Guns?
by: L. Neil Smith

Over the past 30 years, I've been paid to write almost two million words, every one of which, sooner or later, came back to the
issue of guns and gun-ownership. Naturally, I've thought about the issue a lot, and it has always determined the way I vote.

People accuse me of being a single-issue writer, a single-issue thinker, and a single-issue voter, but it isn't true. What I've
chosen, in a world where there's never enough time and energy, is to focus on the one political issue which most clearly and
unmistakably demonstrates what any politician -- or political philosophy -- is made of, right down to the creamy liquid center.

Make no mistake: all politicians -- even those ostensibly on the side of guns and gun ownership -- hate the issue and anyone,
like me, who insists on bringing it up. They hate it because it's an X-ray machine. It's a Vulcan mind-meld.

It's the ultimate test to which any politician -- or political philosophy -- can be put.

If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking
into a hardware store and paying cash -- for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- without producing ID or
signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your friend no matter what he tells you.

If he isn't genuinely enthusiastic about his average constituent stuffing that weapon into a purse or pocket or tucking it under a
coat and walking home without asking anybody's permission, he's a four-flusher, no matter what he claims.

What his attitude -- toward your ownership and use of weapons -- conveys is his real attitude about you. And if he doesn't
trust you, then why in the name of John Moses Browning should you trust him?

If he doesn't want you to have the means of defending your life, do you want him in a position to control it?

If he makes excuses about obeying a law he's sworn to uphold and defend -- the highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights -- do
you want to entrust him with anything?

If he ignores you, sneers at you, complains about you, or defames you, if he calls you names only he thinks are evil -- like
"Constitutionalist" -- when you insist that he account for himself, hasn't he betrayed his oath, isn't he unfit to hold office, and
doesn't he really belong in jail?

Sure, these are all leading questions. They're the questions that led me to the issue of guns and gun ownership as the clearest
and most unmistakable demonstration of what any given politician -- or political philosophy -- is really made of.

He may lecture you about the dangerous weirdos out there who shouldn't have a gun -- but what does that have to do with
you? Why in the name of John Moses Browning should you be made to suffer for the misdeeds of others? Didn't you lay aside the
infantile notion of group punishment when you left public school -- or the military? Isn't it an essentially European notion,
anyway -- Prussian, maybe -- and certainly not what America was supposed to be all about?

And if there are dangerous weirdos out there, does it make sense to deprive you of the means of protecting yourself from them?
Forget about those other people, those dangerous weirdos, this is about you, and it has been, all along.

Try it yourself: if a politician won't trust you, why should you trust him? If he's a man -- and you're not -- what does his lack of
trust tell you about his real attitude toward women? If "he" happens to be a woman, what makes her so perverse that she's
eager to render her fellow women helpless on the mean and seedy streets her policies helped create?
Should you believe her when she says she wants to help you by imposing some infantile group health care program on you at the
point of the kind of gun she doesn't want you to have?

On the other hand -- or the other party -- should you believe anything politicians say who claim they stand for freedom, but
drag their feet and make excuses about repealing limits on your right to own and carry weapons? What does this tell you about
their real motives for ignoring voters and ramming through one infantile group trade agreement after another with other
countries?

Makes voting simpler, doesn't it? You don't have to study every issue -- health care, international trade -- all you have to do is
use this X-ray machine, this Vulcan mind-meld, to get beyond their empty words and find out how politicians really feel. About
you. And that, of course, is why they hate it.

And that's why I'm accused of being a single-issue writer, thinker, and voter.

But it isn't true, is it?
 
I'm sure you'll rationalize it somehow. But don't expect to go to a gun board, and post liberal/leftist nonsense, and not get challenged, if not laughed at.

Rebar, I think that you're the one trying to rationalize things here. I tried to clarify my position for you as much as possible, but you seem to be intent on name-calling rather than anything else. Challenge me, yes ... obfuscate issues under ad hominem charges of hypocrisy and rabid histrionic propaganda, no.

As an example of the latter, I quote:

Last I looked, it was the liberal/left and the democratic party that wants to take our guns, our children, our free speech, our flag, our hard-earned pay, our judeo/christian culture.

Then you haven't looked at much lately. You're also hijaking the thread away from the original topic with so much conservative agitprop.
 
There is absolutely nothing more important than the right to arms - and the rest of the Bill of Rights. Ask the defenseless people in Sudan/Darfur who are being brutalized and slaughtered on a daily basis by their own government. Ask the descendants of those who survived the Stalin purges, where Stalin exterminated 17 million of his own countrymen. Ask the survivors of Tiennamen Square. Ask the survivors of Hitler's death camps.

progunner1957, I think if you asked those people, they would answer your question in a variety of ways, some of which would involve guns, but much of which would involve how sad they were when their own countrymen betrayed them and how useless they believed resistance to be well prior (as in decades and centuries) to those events.

Guns, in and of themselves, are not the sole antidote to tyranny. If a society gets to the point that its citizenry or a portion of its citizenry feel they need to rely on guns to secure their lives and liberties against its own governing authorities, then something went terribly awry far earlier within that society that had very little to do with gun ownership, and that same force had reached a momentum such that individual gun ownership would have scant impact on it. It's nice to play games of "what if" with history, but they remain games.
 
The question is, when our 2A rights are weakened, aren't the rest of our rights then placed in greater peril?
 
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