Deaf Smith
New member
We do.
It's called not doing the THREE STUPIDS.
Deaf
What about avoiding gunplay in the first place?
- Thread starter sfmedic
- Start date
We do.
It's called not doing the THREE STUPIDS.
Deaf
IMHO
You are starting off with the wrong mindset if the amount of money in your pocket is what will dictate your response to the situation.
I live in Canada where there is no CCW but it is not the amount of money in my pocket that will dictate my response, but what the threat to my physical person is.
If I believe that handing over all of my money, wether it's $20.00 or $2,000.00, will allow me to walk away from the situation with only the holes in my body that god gave me then that's what I'll do.
If I believe that regardless of what I do I will be harmed then a different course of action is required.
johnelmore
i dont think its a loaded question - I have no problems whatsover listening to a fellow instructor talk about his or her views or strategies for pro-active security / avoiding situations and diffusing situations while armed
If avoiding situations is common sense there wouldnt be a booming personal protection industry. - Im sure gun owners attend those
If you look at it in that narrow term - avoiding a fight I dont know what your take is on my post. Its much broader than that.
staying out of the situation, getting out of a situation, force escallation once you cant get out of a situation, weighing the consequences of actually ramping up the situation to gunplay.
Jo Bang Lee the sensei that taught mike enchanis of the soldier of fortune magazine fame (idiot to the max) had a great philosophy that he engrained in his Hrang-Do students
If you find yourself in a fight , you have forgotten everything about Hrang Do - his philosophy was staying out of an altercation.
I teach Head of State operations - there are six elements to a Head of state detail - Protective Operations Management(POM), Close Proximity Details (CPD), Counter Assault Teams(CAT) Advance Teams (ADV) Drivers (DRV) and Uniformed Services and Suppprt (USS)
Of all of the sub-elements the most important element is the ADV because they are the ones that deal with proactive security and keeping the principle out of trouble - if there is gunplay involved someone screwed up somewhere and it was probably the ADV
so no I dont think it was simply a loaded question and I certainly dont think you can sluff off proactive security as simply common sense - it isnt anymore common sense than anything else that is taught throughout ranges around the world
Thus my question - How much time do instructors spend to incorporate staying out of trouble into their programs?
second question whats it take to pull a gun? two people die in a situation John Wayne and Woody Allen - how far between the two do people go?
i dont think its a loaded question - I have no problems whatsover listening to a fellow instructor talk about his or her views or strategies for pro-active security / avoiding situations and diffusing situations while armed
If avoiding situations is common sense there wouldnt be a booming personal protection industry. - Im sure gun owners attend those
If you look at it in that narrow term - avoiding a fight I dont know what your take is on my post. Its much broader than that.
staying out of the situation, getting out of a situation, force escallation once you cant get out of a situation, weighing the consequences of actually ramping up the situation to gunplay.
Jo Bang Lee the sensei that taught mike enchanis of the soldier of fortune magazine fame (idiot to the max) had a great philosophy that he engrained in his Hrang-Do students
If you find yourself in a fight , you have forgotten everything about Hrang Do - his philosophy was staying out of an altercation.
I teach Head of State operations - there are six elements to a Head of state detail - Protective Operations Management(POM), Close Proximity Details (CPD), Counter Assault Teams(CAT) Advance Teams (ADV) Drivers (DRV) and Uniformed Services and Suppprt (USS)
Of all of the sub-elements the most important element is the ADV because they are the ones that deal with proactive security and keeping the principle out of trouble - if there is gunplay involved someone screwed up somewhere and it was probably the ADV
so no I dont think it was simply a loaded question and I certainly dont think you can sluff off proactive security as simply common sense - it isnt anymore common sense than anything else that is taught throughout ranges around the world
Thus my question - How much time do instructors spend to incorporate staying out of trouble into their programs?
second question whats it take to pull a gun? two people die in a situation John Wayne and Woody Allen - how far between the two do people go?
I have often expressed this same thought as:
The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun, but the Zero-eth law of gunfighting is to be somewhere else.
The reason it is the "zero-eth" law is that it applies to private civilians. Police, Security, Military... they don't have a choice. In many cases it is there job to seek out the kind of trouble that could lead to a gun fight.
But for me... being somewhere else is even more important than having a gun.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
About the amount of money you are carrying - this goes back to the good shot mantra. Involved in a lethal shooting - you might be silly not to engage an attorney to protect you in your 'good' shoot. It's estimated that even if they don't bill you - it might cost $5000. Yep, some people have not had to do that but you might not be so lucky.
I don't usually carry that much.
I don't usually carry that much.
Glenn - you fleshed out my point better than I could. Im more inclined to give up the cash than bring it to another level. I have been in a "good shooting" and as one of the posters said before - the sheriff doesnt buy you a beer and the piano player doesn't pick up were he left off.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
NPD, welcome to TFL.
That is a useful site, and any one who carries should have all that information (as applied in his/her state) thoroughly ingrained. But it's mainly about when the use of force is justified, which is a somewhat different topic from how to avoid needing to use force in the first place.
No Nonsense Self Defense is a site that covers this really well. Anyone who isn't familiar with it, should be.
I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come up in this thread already.
That is a useful site, and any one who carries should have all that information (as applied in his/her state) thoroughly ingrained. But it's mainly about when the use of force is justified, which is a somewhat different topic from how to avoid needing to use force in the first place.
No Nonsense Self Defense is a site that covers this really well. Anyone who isn't familiar with it, should be.
I'm a bit surprised it hasn't come up in this thread already.
spacemanspiff
New member
The first question - I think I put that in the category of 'common sense'. Granted, not everyone has it, and not everyone can learn it. But common sense tells me that my first option should be to de-escalate via verbal skills. Failing that, I move on to other options, deadly force being the final resort. Sometimes there may be 3 options, sometimes there may be only the one. Its up to me to determine that.
The second question, you are asking a question that everyone may have a different answer to.
Wreck-n-Crew
New member
That should be thing that is natural, but i find myself in bad places because of work and family. Everyday someone new is shot in a robbery where i have to be at least weekly. Carjacking and robing someone in broad open daylight...things are crazy.
The last thing i want is to be sitting in my vehicle or walking to my vehicle when someone targets me. Like was previously stated about the behavior of someone who just screams i am about to do something. Looking around to see who is watching while they approach.
In that moment, if you don't notice,if you are distracted, your sidearm could be useless. Hand on your sidearm, non-Verbal warning gos out, Verbal warning next, What's on your mind!
They get it, no easy, done right....threat avoided. Heart still pounds...eyes scanning. Thank god i wasn't on my phone!
I find the white tyvex coveralls with the orange flip flops to be quite the fashion statement
another good reason to resist the urge to pull that weapon. that and the handcuff marks, The unflattering mugshots , the medical pics if it involved a fight, the thorough searches, the friendly interviews the attorney costs, the court costs , the media exposure, the stress your family goes through, the confiscation of your weapon until the case is settled, The subsequent lawsuit and all its costs by the family, the worrying about his friends seeking revenge
and it would really suck if you weren't in the right.
well at least your not the one dead or injured
another good reason to resist the urge to pull that weapon. that and the handcuff marks, The unflattering mugshots , the medical pics if it involved a fight, the thorough searches, the friendly interviews
the attorney costs, the court costs , the media exposure, the stress your family goes through, the confiscation of your weapon until the case is settled, The subsequent lawsuit and all its costs by the family, the worrying about his friends seeking revengeand it would really suck if you weren't in the right.
well at least your not the one dead or injured
If I go and pay for gun training I would want gun training. I don't want how to stay out of trouble training I have had that through out my life and most of it I classify as common sense.
If you shoot someone out on the street you have a very high likelihood of going to prison. Most people know this or they will probably get some time to think about it if they are too stupid or don't care.
If you shoot someone out on the street you have a very high likelihood of going to prison. Most people know this or they will probably get some time to think about it if they are too stupid or don't care.
SFMEDIC,
One of the reasons people die, or are grievously injured in a confrontation! They are held back by the "I will get in to trouble" Thought, it seems the worry of prosecution, is more than the worry of death of them selves, and their loved ones.
Police Instructors push that heavily. Hence "Drop the Knife" repeated over and over, said knife now buried in chest!
One of the reasons people die, or are grievously injured in a confrontation! They are held back by the "I will get in to trouble" Thought, it seems the worry of prosecution, is more than the worry of death of them selves, and their loved ones.
Police Instructors push that heavily. Hence "Drop the Knife" repeated over and over, said knife now buried in chest!
Tactical Jackalope
New member
I feel you're supposed to be the weapon and the gun, knife, baton, or flashlight is just an extra. If it's the other way around then I'd seek more training.
My gun is my last resort and always will be.
However the comment on "chump change" and just giving it up. I wish that would be how it always is if it was ever going to happen. It's a tough call to make. I know personally where I live, that's not the case. You don't just "get robbed" of your goods.
There's surveillance of a rather recent issue here (it's not isolated it happens often, this time we had surveillance) that a woman was walking out of a store with her purse over her shoulder and a car doubled back where the passenger leaped out and grabbed her bag. She then put her hands up and he shot her in the head. Got into the car and took off.
It's too tough of a call to make. So sadly, I think it's better off fighting..Too much of a gamble with your own life in the hands of scum that takes what you worked hard to earn yourself. To take away what God himself gave you the gift of, life. They don't care if your kids are waiting for you at home or that lunch date you planned with your lover. So why leave your life in their hands to judge on impulse whether to squeeze the trigger or not.
It's sad we have to think this was. Criminals are developing the blackest of hearts.
Even then, lets say after the fact. You decide to pull and lets also say. You hit your target. Regardless, since we're the good guys. Most of the time you will have to live with yourself and you will lose sleep at night. Unlike what would happen to the criminal if the situation was reverse.
Guess it's better to be alive right? Maybe. Too many things can go wrong.
Every situation varies and I hope no one that's a good guy on here ever has to go through anything of the sort.
My gun is my last resort and always will be.
However the comment on "chump change" and just giving it up. I wish that would be how it always is if it was ever going to happen. It's a tough call to make. I know personally where I live, that's not the case. You don't just "get robbed" of your goods.
There's surveillance of a rather recent issue here (it's not isolated it happens often, this time we had surveillance) that a woman was walking out of a store with her purse over her shoulder and a car doubled back where the passenger leaped out and grabbed her bag. She then put her hands up and he shot her in the head. Got into the car and took off.
It's too tough of a call to make. So sadly, I think it's better off fighting..Too much of a gamble with your own life in the hands of scum that takes what you worked hard to earn yourself. To take away what God himself gave you the gift of, life. They don't care if your kids are waiting for you at home or that lunch date you planned with your lover. So why leave your life in their hands to judge on impulse whether to squeeze the trigger or not.
It's sad we have to think this was. Criminals are developing the blackest of hearts.
Even then, lets say after the fact. You decide to pull and lets also say. You hit your target. Regardless, since we're the good guys. Most of the time you will have to live with yourself and you will lose sleep at night. Unlike what would happen to the criminal if the situation was reverse.
Guess it's better to be alive right? Maybe. Too many things can go wrong.
Every situation varies and I hope no one that's a good guy on here ever has to go through anything of the sort.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
And one of the reasons some people wind up in jail is sometmes that they don't recognize an option.Brit said:
That's a reason that Force-on-Force training can be valuable. It provides that chance to study and practice situation assessment under stress.
The last time I was at Gunsite, we did a F-on-F exercise that was set up to include an opportunity for avoidance. Not everyone recognized that opportunity, but in the debriefing that followed the exercise it became clear that avoidance was probably the best choice.
Frank,
Having spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1965, the first 4 years at the Cavern club, of Beatles fame.
These were violent years. I was part time, Thursday/Friday/Saturday nights, 7 PM till around Midnight.
I learned not to think! Thinking takes too long! You could be dead and buried, before you moved.
A young man, most likely deranged (someone looked after him, he was well dressed, collar and tie, gleaming shoes) but not playing with a full deck.
He tried to kill me with a home made ice pick, aimed directly for my sternum!
He was left handed, the blade entered my right wrist (I moved to grab his arm) the bang against the side wall knocked him out, my steel toed kick to the head as he fell, knocked 4 teeth out, broke his jaw, his eye socket was caved in.
The Police we called wanted to lock me up, till I showed the stab wound (and the weapon) he went in the Paddy Wagon, I went to the Emergency ward.
Lots of shots!
My conclusion in fights/attacks, he who hesitates looses.
In my ten years in the USA, I have been in 3 incidents, no, I did not shoot anyone, almost on one. One hands on, one ready to shoot, the two local, I think, Gang bangers in training, they eye balled me, I saw no weapons, their hands were in plain sight, they left.
This was at 2pm, in Dr. Philips, outside a hi end Grocery store. Out of the blue!
(they were following my Wife, in the Store, I love Cell Phones). You can never switch off, never.
Having spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Liverpool UK, 1960 to 1965, the first 4 years at the Cavern club, of Beatles fame.
These were violent years. I was part time, Thursday/Friday/Saturday nights, 7 PM till around Midnight.
I learned not to think! Thinking takes too long! You could be dead and buried, before you moved.
A young man, most likely deranged (someone looked after him, he was well dressed, collar and tie, gleaming shoes) but not playing with a full deck.
He tried to kill me with a home made ice pick, aimed directly for my sternum!
He was left handed, the blade entered my right wrist (I moved to grab his arm) the bang against the side wall knocked him out, my steel toed kick to the head as he fell, knocked 4 teeth out, broke his jaw, his eye socket was caved in.
The Police we called wanted to lock me up, till I showed the stab wound (and the weapon) he went in the Paddy Wagon, I went to the Emergency ward.
Lots of shots!
My conclusion in fights/attacks, he who hesitates looses.
In my ten years in the USA, I have been in 3 incidents, no, I did not shoot anyone, almost on one. One hands on, one ready to shoot, the two local, I think, Gang bangers in training, they eye balled me, I saw no weapons, their hands were in plain sight, they left.
This was at 2pm, in Dr. Philips, outside a hi end Grocery store. Out of the blue!
(they were following my Wife, in the Store, I love Cell Phones). You can never switch off, never.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Brit,
Your experiences were your experiences, and it's good that your training and skills were up to the problems you faced.
However, your experiences were your experiences, and others have had different experiences. One reason for good, professional training is that we get a chance to learn from a broad range of the experiences of many.
The subject of this thread is avoiding gunplay (or in a large sense, avoiding the fight). There are good reasons to do so when it's possible to do so without jeopardizing your safety or the safety of a loved one. And there are therefore good reasons for learning to correctly decide, reflexively, when that is a viable option and how to achieve that result.
But a good outcome still requires making the right decisions and doing the right things. One could react without thinking and make the wrong decisions and do the wrong things; and if he does, he probably won't be so happy with the outcome.
Your experiences were your experiences, and it's good that your training and skills were up to the problems you faced.
However, your experiences were your experiences, and others have had different experiences. One reason for good, professional training is that we get a chance to learn from a broad range of the experiences of many.
Yes, that's another good reason for good, professional training, and for good practice. It takes good training and practice to develop the facility for making the right decisions and doing the right things on demand and reflexively (without conscious thought).Brit said:
The subject of this thread is avoiding gunplay (or in a large sense, avoiding the fight). There are good reasons to do so when it's possible to do so without jeopardizing your safety or the safety of a loved one. And there are therefore good reasons for learning to correctly decide, reflexively, when that is a viable option and how to achieve that result.
But a good outcome still requires making the right decisions and doing the right things. One could react without thinking and make the wrong decisions and do the wrong things; and if he does, he probably won't be so happy with the outcome.
Yes, but there are various ways to lose. Making the wrong decisions and doing the wrong things, like failing to avoid the avoidable conflict, could wind up with you in jail for a long time; and that would be another way to lose -- especially if by making the right decisions and doing the right things you could have avoided the fight/attack and just gone home to a quiet evening with your family.Brit said:
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FireForged
New member
A firearms class is exactly that.. self defense strategy is a totally different subject altogether. If I go to a CPR class, I don't want to talk about healthy eating.