2damnold4this
New member
Good question. I'm betting the wife bought them.
Were Vegas Killers Stopped by CCW?
- Thread starter Gary L. Griffiths
- Start date
Good question. I'm betting the wife bought them.
I expect to get toasted here, but I think this event highlights why it's not a good move for a CCW to get involved in a 3rd party situation.
Unless you know with certainty who's who and what's unfolding, your result can be very negative. While this man's action was commendable, he lost his life w/o impacting the outcome. Had he not intervened, he'd still be alive and the criminals would be just as dead.
Unless you know with certainty who's who and what's unfolding, your result can be very negative. While this man's action was commendable, he lost his life w/o impacting the outcome. Had he not intervened, he'd still be alive and the criminals would be just as dead.
Skoro. you're right . I also wonder about Wilcox's training .
All too often in my experience I hear people state " I have a right to own a gun , I have a right to carry a gun " But when I ask about training , they change the subject !! The gun is not a magic wand !!
Get the very best training you can find !! That will include things like dealing with multiple BGs , and the problem of 'tunnel vision ".
All too often in my experience I hear people state " I have a right to own a gun , I have a right to carry a gun " But when I ask about training , they change the subject !! The gun is not a magic wand !!
Get the very best training you can find !! That will include things like dealing with multiple BGs , and the problem of 'tunnel vision ".
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
In a similar thread in T and T (debating merging them), it was pointed out that we have seen CCW types 'confront' and act in a tactically unsound manner at Tacoma and Tyler.
They may have been brave but if you act in a manner that draws you into the line of fire - the reactionary gap will kill you. As will not taking a shot. These are lethal forces scenarios and not ones to 'confront' - if it turns out that the current person did not act with appropriate caution.
They may have been brave but if you act in a manner that draws you into the line of fire - the reactionary gap will kill you. As will not taking a shot. These are lethal forces scenarios and not ones to 'confront' - if it turns out that the current person did not act with appropriate caution.
skoro said:
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, exactly how do you know what would have happened if he had not intervenrd? How do you know that the shooters weren't going to take hostages and escape, or possibly kill a couple of police officers then escape had he not intervened?
Do you have any stock market tips you can give us?
I'd like to point out that while the CCW holder made what we can see as poor choices, he was able to make a choice!
Tough call, I say. Stay safe, or try to stop the harm. "I'm not a cop, I'm not trained, I don't have to do anything"... is not quite the same as "I can't do anything!"
Its all hypothetical, unless it actually happens to one of us, but if it did, how would you answer that voice in your head that in the dark of night whispers, "You LET people die!" ? Especially if you know, its right?
Tough call.
I also want to point out that, there have been more than a few trained professionals who have been taken down because the threat they saw wasn't the only threat.
Training may help, but its not any guarantee.
I think the thing that ought to be focused on is not that the CCW holder failed, or that it was poor judgement to get involved, but on the fact that being armed allowed him a choice. But, that's just me...
Tough call, I say. Stay safe, or try to stop the harm. "I'm not a cop, I'm not trained, I don't have to do anything"... is not quite the same as "I can't do anything!"
Its all hypothetical, unless it actually happens to one of us, but if it did, how would you answer that voice in your head that in the dark of night whispers, "You LET people die!" ? Especially if you know, its right?
Tough call.
I also want to point out that, there have been more than a few trained professionals who have been taken down because the threat they saw wasn't the only threat.
Training may help, but its not any guarantee.
I think the thing that ought to be focused on is not that the CCW holder failed, or that it was poor judgement to get involved, but on the fact that being armed allowed him a choice. But, that's just me...
I wouldn't call these folks conservative exactly. The actions and political affiliations of these individuals will be looked at and it isn't accidental. Their actions were politically motivated and not motivated by crazy, not the actions of mentally or emotionally disturbed individuals.
They yelled out about starting the revolution, placed the Gadson flag and a swastika over the bodies of the cops, took their guns and ammo, and left a message. That's political.
In the weeks before they went to the camp of Clive Bundy and after three days were kicked out for being "very radical", according to Ammon Bundy, Clive's son, and did not align themselves with others at the ranch. Of the couple of thousand of people who visited the Bundy ranch, Ammon Bundy said maybe only that couple were asked to leave. They discussed their plans and politics with a neighbor and tried to recruit her to their political beliefs, etc. The neighbor calls the wife a good girl and good wife.
So unfortunately we're going to hear about what they thought and what they did.
Wilcox's mistake was a lack of experience.
The couple entered the Wal Mart, fired into the air, said something about the revolution beginning and ordered everyone out. So people in confusion began to flee. This was a good time to help everyone get out safely and keep an eye on the couple. So far they had injured no one at the store. You knew cops were on the way and store security, maybe armed, was there. No one in the store knew anything about the man with the gun except that he shot into the ceiling and told everyone to get out. He had shot no one you knew of at that point.
If you anticipated engaging the man with the gun it's best to know what he's up to and if he has friends there. You have to see what's happening.
Wolcox was brave and tried to intervene. He did not know the situation he was in but thought he did. The wife shot Wilcox after he jerked his piece out. Wilcox did not shoot Miller. Jerad Miller was shot by his wife as police began arriving at the Wal-Mart minutes later. Amanda Miller then shot herself.
Had Wilcox helped people to get out of the store and cleared the area for the cops and security to do their jobs he'd still be alive. Wilcox died a hero but he didn't have to die. Other than him only the Millers died in that store.
tipoc
45 Auto said:
Unfortunately, Mr Wilcox was ineffective in preventing them from doing whatever they pleased. They had a free hand to proceed as they intended, and we've all seen the result.
Since they did none of those things you speculate on, maybe you can explain why you think they'd take those actions.
Yes!
Buy low.
Sell high.
I'm not sure. We can only speculate at this point, but Wilcox may have drawn attention away from the shoppers who were fleeing. He may also have accelerated the Millers' plan to take their own lives.
We can criticize him for a lack of situational awareness, but that's not entirely fair. For starters, Ms. Miller may have been doing nothing suspicious. Second, women aren't generally involved in mass shootings.
There is no reason to believe that this was a mass shooting.
At the restaurant the two police officers were targeted. They were chosen because they were police officers. They were shot to make a political point. The shooters let restaurant patrons flee and shot no one else.
At the Wal-Mart they entered (who knows why they went to a Wal-Mart) Jared Miller shot into the air, yelled something about the revolution beginning and ordered everyone to get out. The Millers let them flee. Miller did not shoot at anyone or shoot any person. Wilcox was shot by Amanda Miller as he approached Miller and pulled his gun.
So there was no random mass shooting. It was political.
Wilcox died a hero but he didn't need to die. There's no evidence one way or the other that he saved any lives. He gave up his without needing to.
More facts will come to light. There will be video. Maybe opinions will change.
tipoc
At the restaurant the two police officers were targeted. They were chosen because they were police officers. They were shot to make a political point. The shooters let restaurant patrons flee and shot no one else.
At the Wal-Mart they entered (who knows why they went to a Wal-Mart) Jared Miller shot into the air, yelled something about the revolution beginning and ordered everyone to get out. The Millers let them flee. Miller did not shoot at anyone or shoot any person. Wilcox was shot by Amanda Miller as he approached Miller and pulled his gun.
So there was no random mass shooting. It was political.
Wilcox died a hero but he didn't need to die. There's no evidence one way or the other that he saved any lives. He gave up his without needing to.
More facts will come to light. There will be video. Maybe opinions will change.
tipoc
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You can't say this Tipoc. You can't say it because you can't say what the couple intended to do by going to Walmart and you can't know if being confronted by an armed man changed their actions. Even though he was killed by the wife you can't know the effect his resistance created.
It was a political act of domestic terrorism of some type.
No one alive knows, yet, what they intended to do in the Wal-Mart. But we do know what happened, at least some of it.
We can all benefit from waiting for more facts and thinking them through before drawing too many conclusions. Maybe I'll change my mind. Likely not.
tipoc
No one alive knows, yet, what they intended to do in the Wal-Mart. But we do know what happened, at least some of it.
We can all benefit from waiting for more facts and thinking them through before drawing too many conclusions. Maybe I'll change my mind. Likely not.
tipoc
spacemanspiff
New member
Its a decision that each person must make for themselves. Just like the decision to carry a gun in the first place was. Not everyone is mentally prepared to use deadly force in their own self defense. And fewer still have thought out the options at their disposal to defend someone elses life.
The 'right' decision that I may make is only going to be 'right' by my own logic. The 'right' decision that YOU may make, may not match my own. We all have heard people boast of what they intend to do in an active shooter situation, and what they think they can accomplish. The fact of the matter is, no one knows what they will actually do until they find themselves in the middle of it.
Anderson Cooper just interviewed the mother and sister of Joseph Wilcox on CNN. He used the word "hero" several times, as did Wilcox's family. The consensus seems to be building that he did have an effect on the shooters' behavior and that he may have slowed them enough for police to get in position.
The latest news is that the police now say they killed Jared Miller and Amanda killed herself following that.
The explanation for the confusion is that the store video shows what looks like Amanda pointing her gun at Jared and then him falling. But his falling is the result of police bullets and not his wife's shots.
tipoc
The explanation for the confusion is that the store video shows what looks like Amanda pointing her gun at Jared and then him falling. But his falling is the result of police bullets and not his wife's shots.
tipoc
armsmaster270
New member
Had they been able to get to the sporting goods dept they could put up a good final stand by upgrading the guns & ammo. Just guessing. If they don't have the keys to the rack A bullet or two would remedy that.
In the military we had two vaults, M-60's and M-16 Bolts in one and M-16's and M60 bolts in the other you would have to get into both vaults to have an operable weapon except 1911a1's.
In the military we had two vaults, M-60's and M-16 Bolts in one and M-16's and M60 bolts in the other you would have to get into both vaults to have an operable weapon except 1911a1's.
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I don't mean to sound insensitive, but engaging in a situation you are not trained to handle and getting yourself killed is not a successful outcome or great support for CCW. The CCW could also have just as easily been shot by the cops who would not know whos's who.
I have stayed alive with the philosophy of not ever giving up a tactical advantage by running your mouth once the imminent threat has been established. Unlike the old cowboy movies, you don't give the bad guy a fair chance and there is nothing wrong with "taking him out" when he does not see it coming.
I have stayed alive with the philosophy of not ever giving up a tactical advantage by running your mouth once the imminent threat has been established. Unlike the old cowboy movies, you don't give the bad guy a fair chance and there is nothing wrong with "taking him out" when he does not see it coming.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
So no, there is no real indication that Wilcox "stopped" the Las Vegas couple. His action may have been beneficial for some Walmart patrons, or not. While his actions were indeed heroic, they were not tactically sound. By the descriptions, he target fixated on the husband without any sort of situational awareness and without realization that the husband wasn't alone.
Ah, the Brenden McKown fear for why he drew his gun and then reholstered it (or put it back in his pocket) before confronting the Tacoma Mall shooter. He said he feared he would be shot by the cops...who like in the Walmart, weren't there yet.
It really isn't likely that he could have just as easily been shot by the police as it is apparently very uncommon for the cops to just open fired on people without verbal warnings. However, if you are going to couch it in such a way, since he was in Nevada which is a pro gun state, then you might say he could just as easily have been shot by another untrained CCW in the store who was trying to do good.
Ah, the Brenden McKown fear for why he drew his gun and then reholstered it (or put it back in his pocket) before confronting the Tacoma Mall shooter. He said he feared he would be shot by the cops...who like in the Walmart, weren't there yet.
It really isn't likely that he could have just as easily been shot by the police as it is apparently very uncommon for the cops to just open fired on people without verbal warnings. However, if you are going to couch it in such a way, since he was in Nevada which is a pro gun state, then you might say he could just as easily have been shot by another untrained CCW in the store who was trying to do good.
Although the police will likely do an indepth investigation of the entire incident, we may never really know if Wilcox's actions made a positive difference to the outcome or not. The politics of this may come into play in terms of some authorities not wanting to admit or publicize that a CCW holder helped bring about a quick ending to the potential stand-off/hostage/pitched battle situation. In any event I think the anti-CCW forces will try to portray this as "proof" of the ineffectiveness of concealed carry, just as they still, and endlessly claim that owning a firearm increases the chances that you will be killed or hurt by one.
What this incident says to me is that there is a very good chance that with a sudden normal situation turning into a life and death scenario, with adrenaline pumping and confusion all around, full awareness of what is occurring will not take place. Between getting killed by an accomplice to the primary shooter, or getting killed by police arriving on the situation and seeing "a man with a gun", a CCW holder needs to be extremely cautious before getting involved.
What this incident says to me is that there is a very good chance that with a sudden normal situation turning into a life and death scenario, with adrenaline pumping and confusion all around, full awareness of what is occurring will not take place. Between getting killed by an accomplice to the primary shooter, or getting killed by police arriving on the situation and seeing "a man with a gun", a CCW holder needs to be extremely cautious before getting involved.