Were millitary pistols carried cocked and locked?

B

Blue Duck357

New member
Watching the history channel tonight on the guns of WWII, and they mentioned the P-38 being such a significant advancement because it could be fired right after drawing it from the holster as opposed to racking the slide to chamber a round as you had to with a Luger.

I had just assumed Lugers were carried cocked and locked by troops, but I do seem to remember something about the army wanting our troops to carry the 1911 with the chamber empty (don't know if it was followed by troops or not). Does anyone know if there was a general consensus among millitaries that automatics should be carried with an empty chamber till the P-38 came along?
 
1911s generaly required to be carried hammer down and chamber empty unless in a hot zone, then one in the chamber and hammer still down. This from Army experience and later (55 to 72) Navy. I think the hammer down rules led to a lot more ADs than there would have been if carrying cocked and locked.

Sam
 
I think the hammer down rules led to a lot more ADs than there would have been if carrying cocked and locked.
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I don't think so, the same dingdongs playing quickdraw cowboy in the armsroom or guardshack with a hammer down gun were just as likely to do the same thing with a cocked and locked gun because are always sure the gun is empty. :eek:
 
In '66-'67 in the Navy in Viet Nam, we were told we could only carry five rounds in the magazines of our 1911s, and we had to have the hammer down on an empty chamber.

After one sailor on another boat had an AD, they told us we could not have a mag in the gun!

Of course we did what we wanted on the rivers when we were away from Control. ;)

They also told us to only load 45 rounds in the 20mm magazines that were designed to hold sixty rounds.

What's that term? Military Intelligence? :rolleyes:

We now know that a committee tried to figure out what to do about spring tension and someone in command, who didn't know Jack about firearms, made these brilliant decisions for us.
 
we were told we could only carry five rounds in the magazines of our 1911s
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:eek: I think I would have asked if I could have a 45LC sixgun in that case. :eek:
 
Even if the P-38 could be carried cocked-and-locked, that could not have been an advancement. As we know, the 1911 and the Hi-Power could be carried cocked-and-locked, and both preceeded the Walther. The advancement may have been that the troops were allowed to carry in that manner.


How is playing cowboy with a single action pistol with the hammer down on a live round going to cause a discharge? It would need a shock like hitting something or dropping it. A bunch of guys playing with a condition 1 single action is more likely to result in a ND, since the safety is easy to disengage.
 
Croyance, I'm sure they were refering to the double action system of the P-38 making carrying a round in the chamber acceptable to the military, not carrying the 38 cocked and locked.

I'm not even certain the P-38 can be carried cocked and locked, I assume it could because I "think" the hammer drop thing which prohibits cocked and locked in some double action guns is relativly new but I'm not sure.


Regards, Blueduck
 
Were military pistols carried cocked and locked?

Depends where the soldier was and what danger he was in. My uncle who seved in the pacific theater and my father who served in the Euorpean theater often slept with the 1911 in their hands cocked and locked. Sounds shocking at first but with the 1911's manuel and grip safety it enabled them to pull this off so to speak and survive to tell about it.
Trying this trick with modern day tupperware pistols that are safetyless is tantamount to committing suicide. Makes you wonder if we haven't regressed in the development of auto pistols instead of progressed doesn't it.
In WWII my relatives told me that they often threw weapons into ditches that didn't work very well or that they did not like. I think in the next war the ditches will be filled with the tupperware pistols. W.R.
 
The P.38 cannot be carried "cocked and locked". I have been told that normally they were carried with chamber empty unless there appeared to be a need for relatively quick use, in which case they were carried chamber loaded and hammer down, with the safety in the off position, that is ready to fire double action. With the early P.38 holster, "fast draw" is a highly relative term.

Note that after the war some P.38's in the U.S. had the hammer drop modified to change the pistol to a cocked and locked type; this change was not, IHMO, a great idea, but it was done.

Jim
 
Were military pistols carried cocked and locked?

The P38 can be modified for cocked and locked but it is not a good idea. You must push up on the safety instead of down to disengage it. It is very awkward at best.
I once modified my walther pp.380 in this way in only a few minutes but then changed my mind about the advantage of this and returned the gun back to its normal condition.
It can be done simply by the removal of a single part. If you pull the trigger the hammer will fall but it falls on the safety and not the firing pin. Not a good idea but it is possible. W.R.,
 
Oddly enough....

Most of the manuals for the 1911 and 1911A1 explained the pistol was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

HOWEVER. Handguns, since the days of mounted calvary, have not been considered "serious military weapons". Even in the calvary days, they were second to the sabre.
Combine this with decision to not adequately train troops with the handgun and general ignorance of pistols and mistrust of enlisted men on the part of "decison makers" and you have orders NOT to chamber a round until required.

At one time, military police who carried 45s had a "tamper wire" affixed to their daily issued pistols. The tamper wire was to demostrate the slide had not be operated.

Such is life.
 
At the risk of repeating much of the good information above, the U.S. military generally instructed its personnel to carry the 1911 pistol in Condition Three: Magazine inserted, chamber empty, hammer down. As noted here, when in battle, soldiers carried cocked and locked regardless. I have heard of many people who carried in Condition Two: Hammer down on a loaded chamber. Even with the old half cock feature, this condition leaves much to be desired in terms of safety. The pistol is best carried cocked and locked and is safe to do so.

Obviously, the advent of the Walther system in 1929 made Condition Two a viable mode of carry, but it leaves much to be desired in terms of hitting the mark on the first shot.

As for the tupperware pistols and their "Safe Action" system, Wild Romanian, I tend to agree with you.
 
The original intent of the military (US that is) was to carry the new semi-auto cocked, round in the chamber and depending on the grip safety. They wanted an "self-actuating" safety, in hand off safe, out of hand on safe. After a few AD's the thumb safety was added. It was not until 1913 did the manual of arms state the pistol was to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. Until then, it was C&L all the way.
 
Policy when I was an Army officer (late 1970's) was to carry hammer down on an empty chamber. There was no way to quick-draw from that friggin' flap holster anyway, so I'm not sure what the point was. About the only time I had to carry live ammo was when distributing cash payroll, and then I had our four biggest uglies escorting me, carrying M16s cocked and locked. I thought of the 1911 as sort of a badge of office.
 
I carried a 1911 for 4 months in Vietnam 68-69 as a M-60 gunner. It was usally carried with a mag. in and no round in the pipe. If I would of wanted to carry one with a round up the pipe that was OK. Never new anyone carrying a 45 to have it cockand locked. 45 ammo was never plentiful. When we were working day partols out of firebases I would leave it behind a lot of times. If things got so bad that I ran out of 60 ammo or the hog broke I'd be looking for a 16. My personal opinion is that it was good for a chow gun. Every three day a slick brought out hot food you had to take your weapon to get get the food. Think about it, why would you want to have it cocked and locked? The 45 was secondary weapon. For you to use the 45 you would probably already be in a firefight so you wouldn't be getting the jump on the emeny.

Knowing young GI's carrying cocked and locked is only asking for accidents to happen.

Turk

Turk
 
Once again I agree with the Wild Romanian.

I love my Glocks for what they are but I sure don't sleep with them chambered.

Hmmm, I may have to find a good used M1911 to cut my teeth on a .45. I remember an old MP that was clerking at department store that sold guns. I was buying my first gun, which turned out to be a Ruger SP101 3 1/2 inch .38+P (which I still think was an excellent choice for the home defense novice).

But this old MP who carried an M1911 for years, carefully explained all the safety devices on the M1911 and he considered it to be the safest handgun. He was particularly fond of the grip safety.

I would not be nervous at all sleeping with a cocked and locked M1911.
 
The Human Factor

It is interesting that this brilliantly designed pistol is always sold or given with a warning not to ever carry it the way it was intended to be carried.

I agree with CR Sam that a 1911 in Condition Two or Three is more dangerous than Condition One. A cocked and locked 1911 is instantly recognizable as a loaded, ready to fire weapon, not likely to be mistaken for an unloaded gun or one with an unchambered round. Note that Conditions Two and Three look identical. You could cock the hammer, pull the trigger and find out you were in condition Three. In Condition One, two safeties plus either a half-cock notch (Series 70) or a firing pin safety (Series 80) protect from unintentional discharge.

In my home, I don't carry a chambered round in a 1911. But outside my home I always do.

Regards.
 
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